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Author Topic: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz  (Read 4673 times)

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Offline Minos

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2021, 08:10:39 pm »
I also think that they are fake... Had a pretty animated discussion here some years ago with one of the sellers that have been flooding ebay with them  ;)

Offline Ron C2

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2021, 08:14:34 pm »
I can't speak to all the Lanz coins, but my primary interest area is Severan dynasty denarii, so will only speak to that.  A quick look shows at least one of his severan denarii currently listed is a cast fake, and it's not like he has many listed right now.  I would recommend anyone interested look at auction number 233989001833 on the usual popular auction site where lanz sells.  A more obviously cast fake denarius would be hard to find, in my opinion.  Nevermind this type is also perhaps the most faked plautilla coin in existence and the rarest plautilla denarius of Rome mintage, but was listed at a very low price. It purports to be RIC 369, for what it's worth.

I find it almost laughable that the store would have listed this innocently at a very low list price, and looking this obviously bad.  It's soapy, porous, and has several big casting pits on the reverse.  You can even see the casting seam along the flan edge in his reverse photo. It's really prominent between 12 and 1 o'clock.  

If this isn't being done purposefully/fraudulently, then this fellow has no business being in the coin business in this one man's view. My vote is to add him.  5 minutes of searching his store is enough to outright declare I would never buy from him.  Period.  WAY too many fakes listed at any given time.

If others have more confidence, then I respect that and wish you the best of fortune in your business dealings. I'm merely offering my own opinion based on my own impression here.
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Offline Minos

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2021, 08:22:39 pm »
Yes, I've noticed that Plautilla earlier today while looking through his listings. Not the most deceptive one  ;D

Offline 77HK77

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2021, 09:25:19 pm »
I find this post presents an interesting quandary for the motto " Know the coin or Know the dealer"

Here the dealer is large and not directly responsible for every action personally. However should our expectation be that the dealer takes responsibility for their employees knowledge and subsequent actions? If one of my employees makes a mistake both myself and the firm are held responsible and to that end safeguards have been established to limit the opportunity for mistakes, which still occasionally slip through.

If the dealer has been repeatedly notified of mistakes and takes no action to limit or correct the errors made, are they not acting in a manner inconsistent with our expectations as a consumer?

Conversely what is my responsibility. I have never bought from numismatiklanz in part because when I looked at his listings I always saw a couple of coins I found suspicious so I turned to more trusted sources- based on my experience. 

Where does my responsibility end and his begin. By selling on Ebay they are knowing selling to a market full of inexperienced buyers. Do they have a responsibility to be more or less careful in presenting? When the coin is worth thousands we expect careful inspections but when the coin is worth $10 should we expect the same level? They have a business to run.

I'm scratching my head wondering how to present "know the coin or know the dealer" to future entrants to the ancient coin market.



Offline Ron C2

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2021, 09:37:37 pm »
I find this post presents an interesting quandary for the motto " Know the coin or Know the dealer"

Here the dealer is large and not directly responsible for every action personally. However should our expectation be that the dealer takes responsibility for their employees knowledge and subsequent actions? If one of my employees makes a mistake both myself and the firm are held responsible and to that end safeguards have been established to limit the opportunity for mistakes, which still occasionally slip through.

If the dealer has been repeatedly notified of mistakes and takes no action to limit or correct the errors made, are they not acting in a manner inconsistent with our expectations as a consumer?

Conversely what is my responsibility. I have never bought from numismatiklanz in part because when I looked at his listings I always saw a couple of coins I found suspicious so I turned to more trusted sources- based on my experience. 

Where does my responsibility end and his begin. By selling on Ebay they are knowing selling to a market full of inexperienced buyers. Do they have a responsibility to be more or less careful in presenting? When the coin is worth thousands we expect careful inspections but when the coin is worth $10 should we expect the same level? They have a business to run.

I'm scratching my head wondering how to present "know the coin or know the dealer" to future entrants to the ancient coin market.




I think you've answered your own question - you know this dealer well enough to walk in the other direction.
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Offline shanxi

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2021, 03:55:55 am »
I read somewhere else that the letter/number codes in his auction titles are abbreviations for the consignor. I don't know if this is true but it seems possible., e.g. the letter code for all three "marc antony " denarii in the current sale is QW followed by a number.

Therefore, if you still consider buying from him, you should check especially all auctions with the same letter code as the coin you are thinking of buying, simply by searching for the letters.

Personally, I stopped buying from him.

Offline Kevin D

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2021, 12:19:03 pm »
I've never had any dealings with Lanz. However, in my opinion, there has been too many complaints by too many different people for there not to be a serious problem with the way they are operating.

Interestingly, I made this same post yesterday on the CoinTalk website (another thread about a Lanz coin) and I was promptly banned. No explanation given, so I don't know if my post was misunderstood, or understood correctly.

Offline Din X

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2021, 03:36:01 pm »
To the legionary denarii, they have been added and suspected by Minos when  apollo_coins had many of them for sale at his ebay store.
After this many of these  fakes appeared at ebay and some even were sold be reputable dealers or auction houses.
Now the question should be answered if all coins of apollo_coins were fakes and if yes what kind of fakes, modern hand cut dies, cast or transfer die fakes.
As far as I know all of his fakes except the legionary denarii were transfer die or cast fakes and at least one of his coins was authentic.
Of his medieval gold fakes, the transfer dies used to strike some of them have been offered to me (I have the pictures of transfer dies and of fitting transfer die fakes. (Can post if there is interest)
He sold one fake and one authentic  Damastion Tetradrachm.
One had a very convincing surface (granularity from crystallisation) and flan and it was  an obverse die match (same die flaw on obverse left ot eye) to the specimen in BNF in Paris and this coin was bought some moths before from a Lanz auction. And one which is imho a transfer die fake made form the Lanz host coin. After the Lanz coin was sold, 4 coins from same dies with same very soft surface and strange flans appeared 3 of them in auctions of auction houses and were sold by them and one by  nfs apollo_coins there could be more of these fakes out there only made fast search.
I could of course not mention that the coin was before in a Lanz auction because it looks actually strange but if I would not mention and it would come out it would look bad but honesty is the best weapon.
I assume that the coin was bough by the forgers from Lanz and then resold and if we think how much they must have earned with the produced transfer die fakes they must have made some profit.

Lanz is nominated so I think I can post a link to the auction where the authentic host coin was sold  Lanz Auktion 166 lot 41

https://www.sixbid-coin-archive.com#/de/single/l26988757

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5059864

The coin ex Lanz offered by nfs apollo_coins

https://www.coryssa.org/2532898/subcategory_id/6055/page/0/keywords/Damastion/search2/yes/date_to/2021-05-10/use_checkboxes/0/search_title/on/period/all/period/all/

The transfer die fake of nfs apollo_coins

https://www.coryssa.org/2533167/subcategory_id/6055/page/0/keywords/Damastion/search2/yes/date_to/2021-05-10/use_checkboxes/0/search_title/on/period/all/period/all/

Same obverse die in BNF in Paris "old" pedigree

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8499804r.r=Argent%2C%20Illyrie%2C%20Damastion%5D?rk=515024;0

I am curious how many here expected that one of his coins was actually authentic and the Damastion fake was actually a transfer die fake and not a modern hand cut die fake.
and if his other coins were either transfer die (some could be cast not sure form pictures), why should not be there the possibility that the legionary denarii were transfer die fakes copied from real coins.
The quality of surface is varying much (some have surface like bad cast fakes) others have only a little bit soapy surface with "hornsilver" and corrosion.
But the flans of all look the same, which is one of my main problems and the by me already mentioned problems.

apollo_coins threads

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=116574.0

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=118710.0

Imho all of these legionary denarii are fake, but some of them do not look so bad and some of them seem to have "horn silver" and corrosion and so they are not as obvious fakes as many pretend they would be.
I think an Italian Expert pretended if I remember correct that a Leontinoi tetradrachm can not be fake because of horn silver can not be artificcially created and applied on coins and so he sold the coin, which was imho very suspicious and in the opinion of some other experts there fake. I think we discussed them in German board and I think someone related to Lanz´s ebay store wrote that they have a very convincing surface corrosion and horn silver and so they are authentic.
And the soapy surface of this legionary denarii which is similar to the soapy surface of the Damastion transfer die fake could imply that these legionary denarii could be transfer die fakes rather than modern hand cut die fakes, because hand cut die fakes genarally do not have soapy surface (except some Lipanoff fakes but this is related to the fact that these Lipanoff dies are produced with electroplating like it is done for most transfer dies).

Picture 1 authentic BNF, same obverse die
Picture 2 Lanz authentic
Picture 3 Ex Lan sold by apollo_coins
Picture 4 apollo_coins fake












Offline Minos

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2021, 04:36:38 pm »
@Din X As you say, these come in "various flavours". Some looks cast, others pressed or struck. My main problem with these at the time was not that apollo_coins had many for sale, but that several other notorious fake sellers also had large numbers of them in store, notably lampsack_gallery and rhoemetalces. The difference between the offerings of these last two and those of apollo_coins was that those of the latest were more deceptive to my eyes (struck), the other ones are obviously pressed or cast.

Now, let's say that most of the struck ones are real, and the others are derived from them. That would imply that a huge hoard of denarii was found altogether, comprising different issues, all of which struck with only one reverse die combined with 5 or 6 obverse dies throughout the serie (something that is seen with all of these, wether they are cast/pressed/struck). That do not seem credible to me, but I'm no expert in legionary denarii. On the other hand, it was also the opinion of Andrew McCabe at the time that they were all forgeries. And yes, apollo_coins did have other fakes in store, like the Mark Antony/Octavian denarius below (also offered by the two other sellers mentioned above).

Unless someone transferred all of the dies from the "genuine coins found in that hoard" to randomly use them to press the obvious fakes, I don't see how any of them could be real.

Offline Din X

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2021, 05:13:08 pm »
These legionarii denarii are imho fakes (I have even on of them), but some have been alterd and can look more convincing and the employees of Lanz are not the best if it comes to fakes (He should have fixed this issue a long time ago, but he did not) and why shouldn´t his employees honestly think that they could be authentic if they have for example a convincing surface with horn silver and corrosion etc. They might not fool experts and of this type and some really good experts but at least some of the altered fakes are not as bad as some members and people try to make them and for me it is undertandable why they can fool some and  to make them think that they are authentic. Some of them can look very bad and obvious fake too (not sure if they are casts of this fakes or transfer die fakes of these fakes).



Offline Nemonater

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2021, 05:57:13 pm »
These legionarii denarii are imho fakes (I have even on of them), but some have been alterd and can look more convincing and the employees of Lanz are not the best if it comes to fakes

It surprises me that some can simply assume that Lanz has nothing to do with his Ebay listings.  In my experience, including lengthy email correspondence, he is very aware of and involved with what gets listed for sale on Ebay, including returned fakes.

Who are these low quality, mystery employees who are listing his fakes?  How does this assumption free Lanz from responsibility?

Offline Ron C2

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2021, 07:23:37 pm »

Who are these low quality, mystery employees who are listing his fakes?  How does this assumption free Lanz from responsibility?

Short answer - it doesn't.  All that's really being debated is:

-Is Lanz (or his mystery employees) totally incompetent and unknowingly flooding his store with many fakes, or
-Is Lanz un-ethically party to fraud by flooding his store with many fakes.

In the end, I'm not sure the distinction matters.  Lanz is definitely notorious. And he definitely sells fakes in greater numbers than almost any other well known online dealer. 

Draw your own conclusions.
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Offline PMah

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2021, 09:36:33 pm »
I have not purchased from that seller; no experience bad or good.
 In the US, a seller is responsible for the quality of the product, within the terms of the contract of sale.  It does not matter if the "smartest" or "dumbest" employee is the actual sales agent, the business has the financial obligation.  If a business uses incompetent sales agents, the business still has to stand behind the product within the terms of the contract.  Read the sales terms before buying anything from anyone.   
    With coins, I personally would never buy from anyone who did not give an absolute guarantee of authenticity and reasonable terms for verifying authenticity.
   
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Offline Din X

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2021, 02:39:22 am »
These legionarii denarii are imho fakes (I have even on of them), but some have been alterd and can look more convincing and the employees of Lanz are not the best if it comes to fakes

It surprises me that some can simply assume that Lanz has nothing to do with his Ebay listings.  In my experience, including lengthy email correspondence, he is very aware of and involved with what gets listed for sale on Ebay, including returned fakes.

Who are these low quality, mystery employees who are listing his fakes?  How does this assumption free Lanz from responsibility?

Lanz is responsible for his buisness and there are sadly sometimes too many fakes in his store if it comes to ancients (every offered fake is a fake too much) but they are not offering them intentionally like the criminals on nfs list and the amount of fakes is actually low in relation to the authentic coins, which they are selling.And Lanz or his employees are removing almost all of them if they are notified and I think that they honestly think that the very few fakes which they do not withdraw are in fact genuine.

When I first wrote them about a fake in their ebay auctions Lanz himslef answered and he often answered himself after this (it was not always clear who answered, because he sometimes used his name to answer and sometimes not.)
But some time ago, when I worte to the support of their ebay store, they did not anwer anymore and but they have wirthdrawn them.
If someone can not even write thank you, I will not help anymore , so I stopped to write them some time ago, but I still post fakes in their listings to German board to warn others.
I have been at his store because, he had many of these Sicilain fakes in his listing like many others and I wanted that the fake dies will be published and accessable to auction houses and dealers, that these fakes will not be offered and sold anymore.
I think that my idealism, to spend many thousands of Dollars to buy dies and to get pictures of others and to spend much time and effort to remove them must have impressed him.
He was really kind and treated me with respect, but when we spoke about fakes I noticed the he sometimes became emotional (mimic and voice) and that he truly hates fakes, I guess that they are bad for buisness and that they have caused him some money loss and trouble too in the past. I think that someone who hates fakes soooo much would never sell them intentionall and he and or his employees have generally withdrawn almost all fakes when they have been notified.
I have seen there a tray with sorted out fakes too and he has withrawn coins from previous sale too, when I told him that they are fakes.
I had been in his office (it is a roof apartment in Munich) with my dies and have seen some of the rooms, if you come in is a desk and secretary in hallway, I have seen his private room and one very huge room with many employees sitting there and doing coin description and adding them to ebay.
There was literature in this room and this camera system they are using. I have not seen some smaller rooms.
When I was in his office and we talked someone called, he answered the call and it was a customer and asked about a very coin modern coin in his ebay listing I think it was about the condition of the coin and he took his time to answer for I coin where he will make almost no profit with.
I do not know how much he charges as fees for consignors and maybe he is giving discount for power consignors but I assume something between 20-30% and in this the ebay fees of 10% and costs for photograph, attribution, authentication and adding them to ebay and doing support of them is included and % for rent for expensive office in Munich etc. If you then consider they are selling mainly cheap coins, where they do eran almost nothing for one coin, they make the money only with mass (they sell so many that they make profit even if they earn very little with each).
To do a long and authentication is costing time and money and is so not economical for cheap coins where they do earn very little.
Dealers who ask for higher prices have a higher margin and can of course invest more time for authentication, but higher price generally means it will take longer to sell them.
I do think that the buisiness model of Lanz is the main problem (to sell many many coins and making only little profit with each).
But the authentication skills of his employees of ebay store are really not good and must be improved why he did not do so far I do not know, maybe he tried to find some good employees but did not find.
I am not sure how much he can offer as sallary (he has to calculate always that it pays off) but it could be less and the work condition worse than in the other real auction houses in Munich, so I assume the really good ones go to the auction houses.
When I spoke with him I noticed that he is not completely satisfied with his employees and their skills if it comes to fakes, I think he said that only 1-2 of his employees were numismatics who are really interested in coins I assume the other ones are then doing this to have a job and to earn money but they possibly do not like their job then so much. Lanz could have tried to do himself or to find trainings for his employees to improve their authentication skills, (I do not know if such trainings are available in Germany), if he can not find employees better in authentication.
I have a buisiness too but not related to coins and the secret of being succesful is imho to have good employees but it is hard to find them.
And even good employees are doing mistakes form time to time but some  employees are costing more than they earn you, such employees have to be fired.
(I had to fire one, she made very expensive mistakes and if I have to check everything she did later carefully, then I can do it in almost the same time by myself and right without paying for an employee).

Back to topic, there are many thing that we can critisize about Lanz and which he should improve and imho should have already improved a long time ago, but he is not a criminal who is intentionally selling fakes, he and his employees are removing almost all fakes if they are notified and I believe that they honestly think, that the very few fakes, which they refuse to withdraw are actually genuine .

There speaks nothing against it to objective critisize Lanz, he is selling many many coins, (many customers are not giving feedbacks like me) and so the number of his sold coins is much higher than ebay evaluations are implying.
If you sell so much, much can go wrong but, so there is obviously a high number of not satisifed customers but their numer if we see them in realtion to very happy and satisfied customers is neglectably low.






 

Offline Molinari

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2021, 02:34:30 pm »
I wonder if Roman coins are more problematic than Greek here.  I used to browse Lanz nightly for Greek coins, and although there was a phase when many were horribly tooled, forgeries themselves were quite rare.

I also just caught up on an old CT thread and there are many stories there.  Perhaps this is one where you should consider leaving the topic open for a bit, Joe. 

Offline Nemonater

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2021, 02:41:26 pm »
I think we can all understand a desire to defend an old friend.  However, I think pity should be directed to the victims who spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on fakes rather than the man who continues to reap a profit from selling them.

Offline Din X

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2021, 04:23:06 pm »
I think we can all understand a desire to defend an old friend.  However, I think pity should be directed to the victims who spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on fakes rather than the man who continues to reap a profit from selling them.

I doubt that it is always possible for auction houses to get the money back from consignors if coins later (maybe after some years) turn out to be fake.
And of course dealers can have a problem too if coins later (maybe after some years) turn out to be fake.

I think, that we can assume that many of the fakes in black cabinets of dealers or auction houses are such fakes, for which they were not be able to get their money back from consignors/sellers.
Another way how dealers can get fakes, is if they buy whole collections.

Offline John O3

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2021, 05:41:42 am »
I've used Lanz for years and have generally been happy but was iritated by their sale of a large number Paduan fakes recently. Although clearly noted as fakes, once they are in "circulation" who knows who is passing them of as geniune?

I'm certain there are employees involved because some recent Roman purchases have been incorrectly listed under either the wrong emperor (as if a template was reused without overwriting it) or the RIC is just plain wrong. Either way, and I don't buy much from them now,  it is sloppy at the very least and they do not respond to messaging on eBay.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2021, 08:45:53 am »
We seem to have some confusion here. When we talk about COINS, if they are fake or genuine, we talk about them ONE AT A TIME, or ONE TYPE AT A TIME, and we do not mention dealer names unless they are on the NFSL

Nomination does not include discussions about the authenticity of any particular coin(s). This thread is a mess.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2021, 01:24:44 pm »
I just looked at the eBay shop again. They are careless at best and it does seem worse than that.  They deserve to be on the list but I suspect it is going to cause a lot of trouble if I add them.
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Offline dwarf

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2021, 02:29:00 pm »
We have a saying for this in Germany
"Die Kleinen hängt man die Großen lässt man laufen"

I suppose there is something similar in English, google doesn't help much
You hang the little ones, let the big ones run

Joe Sermarini's decision is very understandable

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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2021, 04:37:21 pm »
I think just having a thread like this helps people make their own decision.  Whether or not they are on the list, I know what I will do when it comes to Lanz, and I suspect others will do the same...

Offline glebe

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2021, 06:32:14 pm »
We seem to have some confusion here. When we talk about COINS, if they are fake or genuine, we talk about them ONE AT A TIME, or ONE TYPE AT A TIME, and we do not mention dealer names unless they are on the NFSL

Nomination does not include discussions about the authenticity of any particular coin(s). This thread is a mess.

If nomination does not include discussions about the authenticity of any particular coin what does it include?

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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Nomination NFSL numismatiklanz
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2021, 09:09:06 pm »
IF you have questions about authenticity, then they should be discussed in a separate thread that does not name the dealer. If we condemn them, then that can be mentioned in a nomination. The two should not be mixed.
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