Bonosus coins

[Serdinum]

What do you think, Was Bonosus (280) struck his own coins, or they were just barbaric imitation?

[curtislclay]

Yes, just barbarian imitations. 

There's an article proving that fact, I think by Dieter Salzmann.

[Robert_Brenchley]

If he didn't strike his own coins, what were they imitating?

[napki]

I think common barbarous radiates of Tetricus I which have blundered legend that look like BONOSVS if you first smoke the special cigarette. 

[Mark Z]

Scroll to the bottom:

http://www.beastcoins.com/RomanImperial/V-II/V-II.htm

mz

[Mark Z]

End of the article:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/525808

mz

[maximinvs]

Scroll to the bottom:

http://www.beastcoins.com/RomanImperial/V-II/V-II.htm

mz

Beast says that "Vagi goes on to note the coinage of Proculus was unknown until very recently and the single known specimen is accepted by many numismatists as genuine, where the coinage of Bonosus is generally dismissed as altered or are misdescribed "barbarous radiates"."

Does Vagi cite a reference for the Proculus coin? This is the first I have heard about it.
Regards,
Ian

[mauseus]

Hi,

Bankhaus Aufhauser I think it was sold the Proculus coin around the late '80's or early '90's. I have the sale catalogue at home. I'll dig it out and post a scan of the Proculus.

It is, in reality, a rather barbarous looking coin (albeit with some artistic merit it does not match the style of an official mint, even one producing coins quickly) and is, to my eyes, a similar thing to the Bonosus issues.

I'll scan it this evening unless someone beats me to it.

Regards,

Mauseus 

[mauseus]

Hi,

I was right, Bankhaus H Aufhauser 8 (9-10 October 1991), lot 640, estimate 30,000 DM. Sadly I don't have the prices realised for this sale.

The reverse is VICTORIA AVG. Look at the funny "V"'s, rendered quite commonly as "U"'s on barbarous radiates.

Regards,

Mauseus

[Pscipio]

I think it sold for about 90'000 DM, at least that's what my memory tells me. Maybe someone who has the final price list can confirm.

Lars

[maximinvs]

Thanks for posting the image Mauseus. The legend is definately not blundered, quite the opposite, but the style is certainly unofficial imo.

Does the catalog mention weight or diameter?

Thanks,
Ian

[Robert_Brenchley]

The style isn't official, but that could simply imply that Proculus didn't have established mint workers available and had to make do with local craftsmen.

[ecoli]

I've always wondered with those brief emperors and usurpers; with all the things they need to do, they seem to have a fixation with minting coins...like Marius for example...

[Sri_Sahi]

It's rule #1 in the Usurper's Propaganda Handbook. Not only does one's face on the coinage establish the appearance of legitimacy but donatives make for loyal troops and happy subjects.

[CzarMike]

It's rule #1 in the Usurper's Propaganda Handbook. Not only does one's face on the coinage establish the appearance of legitimacy but donatives make for loyal troops and happy subjects.

And makes you seem like a legitimate usurper in history.

[Robert_Brenchley]

I wonder how legitimate anyone would have looked with coins that looked as though they'd been struck by the village blacksmith? We just don't know how far they distinguished between official and unofficial in ordinary use.

[mauseus]

Hi,

Does the catalog mention weight or diameter?

Sorry for the delay. The weight of the Proculus is 3.46 grammes and the diameter from the plate is 18mm.

Regards,

Mauseus

[Sri_Sahi]

I wonder how legitimate anyone would have looked with coins that looked as though they'd been struck by the village blacksmith? We just don't know how far they distinguished between official and unofficial in ordinary use.

By the time of Bonosus (281), there were surely few if any of the barbarous radiates still in circulation on the continent. Their production seems to have ceased with Aurelian's reform of 275. Radiate imitations of rulers from Aurelian onward are all very rare. By the time of Bonosus, the beautiful new reformed coinage had been in production for six years and had set quite a high standard for circulating medium.

I just can't get over the absolutely remarkable resemblance between "Bonosus" and Tetricus I... that same 30,000 DM could have bought a bang-up collection of barbarous radiates with all sorts of wacky inscriptions.

[mauseus]

Hi,

By the time of Bonosus (281), there were surely few if any of the barbarous radiates still in circulation on the continent. Their production seems to have ceased with Aurelian's reform of 275. Radiate imitations of rulers from Aurelian onward are all very rare.

Aurelian and Probus are known but like you say are rare; however, the traditional view is (ignoring the unpublished Gloucester hoard from the 1950's) that they continued to stike imitations, mainly based on Gallic plus deified Claudius prototypes, in Britain (and possibly northern France) until the mid 280's, approximately until the reign of Carausius. This is probably due to the sparse movement of official coin back into those areas (for whatever reason).

My imitation with Tetricus I obverse and Aurelian "Oriens Avg" reverse

It is difficult to date British hoards from this period (ie post 274 AD) because of the dearth of official coinage. 

Regards,

Mauseus

[Sri_Sahi]

Yes, Britain was an exception but this testifies to Britain's isolation following the collapse of the Gallic Empire. The continuing epidemic of barbarous radiates in Britain can't have much affected events at Cologne. Or am I mistaken? Hell does freeze on occasion 

[CzarMike]

I wonder how legitimate anyone would have looked with coins that looked as though they'd been struck by the village blacksmith? We just don't know how far they distinguished between official and unofficial in ordinary use.

I don't know about ancient times but ive spent roman coins before without anyone noticing.

[ras]

given what little can be gleaned from the photo i'm not sure by a long stretch that that proculus wasn't some bored guy's invention. and certainly all these so-called bonosus ones are little more than wishful thinking on the part of their owners.

but setting aside this issue, there are a number of factors that must have come into play in order for a rebel general to have a coinage run of his own. many known through ancient texts have no known coinages and this can't mean, at least not in every case, that they just made too few coins before they met their end. if a roman decided to go rogue in a city that had an operating mint it's a foregone conclusion that he had ready access to an operating mint and all its bullion. sending a memo over to the floor manager would be all that was needed to start cranking out new coins. even in the case of domitian II something like this evidently happened before he was arrested, quite possibly, the very same day given the extreme rarity of those ants. but what if your ragtag army nominated you to be the new augustus when you were in the middle of nowhere and in the company of but your fellow soldiers? you were still a nobody and had no resources with which to make new coins. you simply paid with the coins already in the coffers and hoped to hell you made it out alive when a loyalist army showed up.

there are many cases when a scenario like this happened (diocletian, trajan decius, probus, etc., etc. etc.) whose Day One coinages begin in high style from the nearest operating mint with no known scrappy issues exhibiting the telltale signs of an early run. the conclusion one can derive here is that however much it may have proven to be a key turning point in the new pretender's career, not to mention the ego brownie points, the whole enterprise must often have been considered too impractical given the other priorities they would have faced.

remember also that committing your likeness to metal was really risky. it was a point of no return. even men who quite obviously never had imperial ambitions but who made trinkets bearing their portraits are known to have been executed all the same. again, a prospective rebel may have delayed showing his hand too early and announcing his betrayal because in many cases it would have been an unnecesary risk; better to stab the top guy in the back and then go public.

ras

[PeterD]

Yes, Britain was an exception but this testifies to Britain's isolation following the collapse of the Gallic Empire. The continuing epidemic of barbarous radiates in Britain can't have much affected events at Cologne. Or am I mistaken? Hell does freeze on occasion 

Britain was part of the Gallic Empire, so when that empire returned to the fold, Britain was no more or less isolated than before. Barbs were made in Gaul as well as Britain and I can't see them having much effect on the political situation.

Makers of barbs would have chosen as models coins that people were familiar with. Official coins take some time to come into full circulation, and so the production of barbs tended to lag official coinage (as Mauseus has pointed out).

The coins from Aurelian's reform onwards were new denominations. Perhaps for this reason not many were sent to Britain. Or perhaps Britain was considered self-sufficient, able to pay the administration and army out of local taxes. At any rate they were clearly only circulating in low amounts, if at all, and unlikely to be imitated.

[Sri_Sahi]

Yes, Britain was an exception but this testifies to Britain's isolation following the collapse of the Gallic Empire. The continuing epidemic of barbarous radiates in Britain can't have much affected events at Cologne. Or am I mistaken? Hell does freeze on occasion 

Britain was part of the Gallic Empire, so when that empire returned to the fold, Britain was no more or less isolated than before. Barbs were made in Gaul as well as Britain and I can't see them having much effect on the political situation.

Makers of barbs would have chosen as models coins that people were familiar with. Official coins take some time to come into full circulation, and so the production of barbs tended to lag official coinage (as Mauseus has pointed out).

The coins from Aurelian's reform onwards were new denominations. Perhaps for this reason not many were sent to Britain. Or perhaps Britain was considered self-sufficient, able to pay the administration and army out of local taxes. At any rate they were clearly only circulating in low amounts, if at all, and unlikely to be imitated.

You seem to conclude yourself that Britain was indeed rather isolated (self-sufficient) in this period. The local powers that remained in the Gallic Empire following the deaths of the Tetrici did not simply wake up the next morning and say to themselves "Ah, we're all under the authority of Rome again.. how nice!". It was not until Carinus' British campaign some ten years later that order was restored on the island, full imperial authority re-established and the illicit mints closed - apparently by force.

 My point was that the radiate minimi still being produced in Britain's isolated economy in 281 had no circulation in the area under Bonosus' control. The people of Cologne and it's environs would have been used to the fine new Aurelianiani.

[PeterD]

Any well run province would have been self-sufficient. Money comes into a province when central government needs to to pay it's administrators, army etc. The ideal situation for the goverment is when those expenses are met by local taxation. Good for the government but restricting on the local economy hampered by a diminishing  pool of coins. Hence the reason for home-made money.

The local powers that remained in the Gallic Empire following the deaths of the Tetrici did not simply wake up the next morning and say to themselves "Ah, we're all under the authority of Rome again.. how nice!".

You could say the same about northern Gaul as for Britain. I don't see any aurelianiani minted at Cologne or Trier. Barbarous radiates were also made in Gaul. The position of the two areas was much the same. What the position was by 281 I do not know. It takes longer to introduce a new denomination, possibly changing old coins for new.

As for Carinus's visit to Britain, as I understand it, he was on some un-explained campaign.  Unless there is some information that I am unaware of, and that's possible, it's a bit of a leap to say that he closed down illicit mints.