Two Questions: Carthage Coins/Patina

[MidWestGuy]

  Hello again.  It looks like my first post and replies got deleted which I apologize for.  I'm all new to this hobby. 

   I have a few more questions: 

   Are there any coins from Carthage from the time of Hannibal/Hamilcar Barca and that area?  If so are any affordable (low cost)? 

   I've also been reading about this Patina thing.  Can someone please post a few pictures of a coin that has no Patina and a coin that has Patina?  I've been reading that collectors find it desirable.  I thought collectors wanted their coins 100% clean and shinny so it's interested to hear about this Patina. 

    Finally, I went to the library and checked out a really good book called Handbook of RomanImperial Coins by a David Van Meter.  This book is very nice.  The introduction part on Roman coins is very informative. 

[Randygeki(h2)]

I'll step aside for the experts but heres a couple coins, one with, and one without most of the patina, and one completely stripped.

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/zeugitana/carthage/i.html

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=patina

[MidWestGuy]

  Top one looks nice, middle one looks horrible, and bottom one looks bad. 

[Randygeki(h2)]

I should have added this one too.

[ickster]

The Van Meter book is often highly recommended for us newbies, and with good reason. I find it to be an excellent starting point and reference. Obviously, the more in depth you venture into the hobby, the greater the need to expand your references.

You can pick up the book here at FORVM. I think you also get $10 off the purchase of a coin ordered at the same time. Can't beat that!

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=525&pos=0#Popular Authors

[Lucas H]

Finally, I went to the library and checked out a really good book called Handbook of RomanImperial Coins by a David Van Meter.  This book is very nice.  The introduction part on Roman coins is very informative.  

Van Meter is an excellent introductory book.  You must have a nice library, I had to buy my copy from Joe here at the Forum.  

Also, I don't know what happened to your first thread.  Is it possible you put it in the wrong place and someone moved it? EDIT:  Yep, someone deleted it.  I didn't see it, but mind the rules.

[mcbyrne21]

As I understand it, modern coin collectors like their coins clean and shiny. Ancient collectors like their coins patina'ed (sic).  Helps protect the coin underneath, makes it easier to verify it as genuine, shows the "history" of the coin, etc. 

Welcome to the hobby.  I suggest checking out Wayne Sayles Ancient Coin Collecting series of books.  Lots of good information for beginners, fairly new and up to date and pretty easy to find (including on this website).

[Enodia]

Are there any coins from Carthage from the time of Hannibal/Hamilcar Barca and that area?  If so are any affordable (low cost)? 

yes, there are and they can be found relatively cheap (relative being the operative word). obviously the Punic issues from Carthage cease shortly after this time.

they can be found further afield than North Africa as well, with Punic coins being issued in Spain, Sicily and southern Italy. Hannibal issued a reduced stater at Tarentum, and the coin below was struck during the same period at Akragas in Sicily under the Punic occupation of that island.
(details here... https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-53337  )

~ Peter

[Enodia]

it might also be less confusing to understand the difference between patina (as it applies to bronze coins) and toning (as on silver coins).

here is an interesting discussion regarding patina...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=9244.0

~ Peter

[Andrew McCabe]

it might also be less confusing to understand the difference between patina (as it applies to bronze coins) and toning (as on silver coins).

here is an interesting discussion regarding patina...
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=9244.0

~ Peter

It is an interesting discussion thread linked to by Peter.

On Patina versus Toning: collectors of high grade silver coins will know that mint-lustre or original strike surfaces of silver cannot be restored once cleaned even if one waits 1000 years. So don't clean other than a wash in mild soap and water which probably won't remove mint-lustre or original strike surfaces. The safe answer for high grade coins is simply, don't clean, because the high grade contains within it records of the original strike (lustre and surfaces)

For lower grade coins, mint lustre and original strike surfaces are neither here nor there. In those cases toning can be a matter of aesthetics and provided the coin is not damaged by cleaning, toning may return in 10 to 20 years. But why ever remove it in the first place?

[Enodia]

... toning can be a matter of aesthetics and provided the coin is not damaged by cleaning, toning may return in 10 to 20 years. But why ever remove it in the first place?

i couldn't agree more!

in rare cases the toning might be uneven or disagreeable, but in the vast majority of cases it can add an aesthetic that the coin might not have had otherwise, possibly even highlighting the details and giving a fuller perspective. in fact many collectors will pay a premium for nicely toned coins.
removing this can make the coin far less interesting, giving it a flat, uniform appearance. and as you will soon find out MidWestGuy (if you have not already) there is nothing uniform about ancient coins!

~ Peter

[MidWestGuy]

Finally, I went to the library and checked out a really good book called Handbook of RomanImperial Coins by a David Van Meter.  This book is very nice.  The introduction part on Roman coins is very informative.  

Van Meter is an excellent introductory book.  You must have a nice library, I had to buy my copy from Joe here at the Forum.  

Also, I don't know what happened to your first thread.  Is it possible you put it in the wrong place and someone moved it? EDIT:  Yep, someone deleted it.  I didn't see it, but mind the rules.

  I went to a university library and looked for ancinet coin books and found the Van Meter book. I'm glad I checked it out.  The books brief histories of each emperor are very good - short and informative. 

  My Vespasian arrived in the mail but I'm on a small vacation and away from home so I was not there when it arrived.       Hopefully I will get to see it this Saturday. 

  I'll admit I don't know what coin I want next.  I would not mind having one of Constantine's wife, the one who got broiled in hot water.  As much as I love history, I'm glad I'm not living back then. lol. 

[MidWestGuy]

I think I get it now - patina is good.  And don't scrub an ancient coin trying to get it all shiny because that could ruin it.  

[mcbyrne21]

If you are looking for ideas of what coin to purchase next, maybe consider putting together the different dynasties.  Its interesting from a historical standpoint and, as an added bonus, you already have a Vespasian so you would only need Titus and Domitian to complete the Flavian Dynasty.

The Constantinian is a nice one to do as well because there were a lot of members but most of them have coins that are common and can be aquired quickly but there are a couple rarer ones that will take some work.

Just a recco based on my personal experiences so take it for what you want

[MidWestGuy]

  Question - I know the obverse and reverse of a coin, but what do you call the actual design on each side?  What's the technical term for it? 

[Randygeki(h2)]

If you have time you should check out Dougs site.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/index.html


A Glossary of Coin Terms
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/gloss.html



https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/glosshead.html
A Glossary of Coin Terms - Heads



Describing Ancient Coins
The Vocabulary of Classical Numismatics
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/voc.html

[MidWestGuy]

  I'm back from Tennessee.  Long boring drive but I finally got to see my first ever ancient coin! 

  First impressions -  I noticed it's concave.  I assume that is from how it's made by being hit with a hammer.  Cool!

   I can make out the face of Vespasian but there really no hair detail.  I can see a little bit of the laureate stick out above his head. As for the legend - I'm using a magnifying glass: I can make out IM and slightly P.  I can make out  CA**S*R.  The S and R are tough to read though.  I can't make out any of the other words.  It's supposed to read - IMP CAESAR VEST AVG COS VII

  As for the reverse - The outline of AEQVITAS is visible plus the scales  and sceptre.  I can see the SC.   

  Overall all I'm satisfied with it.  Since it is my first coin i did not want to spend too much money in case I hated the coin then I
would not be out a lot of money.  I can make out Vespasian's face and make out AEQVITAS holding the scales and I definitely wanted to see the scales. 

  So the coin is supposedly dated 76 AD.  If the coin is real and I assume it is, I wonder who made this coin?  Were the slaves or freedmen who made this coin?  Who held the coin?  What did they buy with it?  Did a man who was in a legion use it?  Did anybody hold this coin that later died from a plague?  Questions that will never be answered, I know. 

  Overall I'm satisfied and now I'm ready for another coin! 

[MidWestGuy]

  MY coin does not have this but I've see some coins online that has, I think the term is Luster, around the edges.  Is that a negative or positive? 

[Robert_Brenchley]

Positive. You get it when the original surface from striking has been preserved intact, without wear or corrosion.

[MidWestGuy]

  When I look at coins online I see some coins that look like the legends sort of run outward towards the edge of the coin.  At first i thought this was just bad photography but when I'm seeing more and more of these.  Here's an example:

  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?param=41896q00.jpg&vpar=415&zpg=52647&fld=https://www.forumancientcoins.com/Coins2/


  It looks like the coin has seems that run outward.  The reverse even looks like it's out of focus.  What is that called and why
does it happen? 

[Enodia]

part of what you are seeing are 'flow lines'. these are produced as the silver is being forced out to the rdges of the die during the striking process, and can sometimes help in determining whether a coin is genuine or not (cast coins will not have these lines).

~ Peter