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Author Topic: Which coins would you stop?  (Read 6740 times)

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Offline mwilson603

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Which coins would you stop?
« on: August 27, 2007, 08:42:01 pm »
Hi All,

We talk so often and passionately about the coins we love.  Some from a standpoint of "What an amazing leader" is personified on the coin, some from a "This coin represents one of those incredibly significant moments in time" view, and some from a "It is truly a thing of beauty" positions.  The latter being the main conversation piece in the COTD threads. 

There are of course other reasons for loving your favourite coin.  However, what I want to know is what your antithesis coin is?  If you had a time machine and the ability to make one trip to any time and during that trip you could remove the plans for one coin type, what would that coin type be and why?

The reasons are likely to be mainly "It's plain ugly", but it could just as easily be the removal of that one coin you know that you will never own and you want to take away the frustration.  All reasons for removing the coin from the passage of time are welcome.

Offline Ardatirion

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2007, 10:00:44 pm »
Very thought-provoking. I would probably just go back and give the moneyers full sized-planchets.  ;D

gavignano

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2007, 10:34:08 pm »
well, strictly as a matter of personal taste, the Constantinian era 2 soldiers 1 or 2 standard reverse is really boring, although some of the early quadrans are terribly unimaginative. And the crayon like designs on the Leo/Johannes/Zeno group could go too.
I could do no better myself, as I can only draw a fairly highly sophisitcated stick man at best - like a bad Victory on a Tetricus barb  :laugh:... Joe

Offline mwilson603

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2007, 04:48:26 am »
Yep, I'm with you on the 2 soldier ones.  Not wanting to upset anyone collecting in this area but I had those in mind as the "most boring" along with the campgates  :laugh:

Offline areich

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2007, 05:50:27 am »
These are nothing compared to '3 standards' from Nicaiea and the Viminacium 'bull and lion'.
The 'SC surrounded by wreath' is next.
Andreas Reich

Optimus

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2007, 08:12:49 am »
All byzantine "cup" coins get my vote. Plain ugly and schematic - at least for me (yes yes I know - they are beautiful for theri collectors  ;) )
5t century small bronzes are also a pain to look at sometimes.
Couldn't we just stop our time machine somewher in the Hellenistic world? Syracuse, for example??   8)

Offline LordBest

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2007, 09:35:38 am »
Personally I would go to the French Medal Mint c1900 and hit the director with a 2 by 4 with a nail in it until he agreed to maintain artistic standards and not allow 'modern' styles to completely overtake the mint, which in turn spread to the rest of the world. The Paris mint was until quite recently the numismatic centre of the universe, where they went all followed, andin the case of the embrace of modern srtistic styles, numismatic art  accross the globe followed Paris right into the Abyss. >:( We might have nice looking coins/medals today if it hadn't occured.
                                                                   LordBest. 8)

Offline mwilson603

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2007, 11:00:45 am »
Great answers, keep them coming people  ;D

gavignano

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2007, 07:35:46 pm »
The campgates!!!!   :o
I collect those!  ;)
Actually, they are kind of a dull design. I just like them due to the exceptional variety of exergue MM with dots, field marks, the occasional weirdo doors, etc.
And, no one has ever REALLY agreed they are signal towers...So they have a slight aura of mystery.  Joe

Offline ROMA

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2007, 07:46:26 pm »
I wish i could go back and stop the byzantines from so drasticaly chaging their coinage. Imagine if they would've continued using the late Roman conventions until the 15th century?
Adversus solem ne loquitor

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2007, 03:30:50 pm »
I might whack ATG before he embarked on his career of conquest, save the world from 300 years of the fellow posing as Heracles, and see what the Persians would do with their coinage.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline ROMA

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2007, 06:46:33 am »
I can see how the campgates and standards get tiresome since there not special designs and they exist in large numbers, but the Viminacium bull and lion? How is that one of the worst designs?
Adversus solem ne loquitor

Offline David Atherton

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2007, 07:00:09 am »
I suppose I'm in the minority here, but I wouldn't want any of them to be 'stopped'.

All of them have information about the past to teach us. I do find many of the Constantine era issues dull and monolithic beyond belief, however, even they have their place in history and their admirers.

Besides, If all of those late Roman bronzes disappeared what would those late Roman collectors be collecting? lol

Offline mwilson603

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2007, 07:44:45 am »
OK, I'm going to get contentious and put forward a new type of coin that I would stop.

Bending the rules slightly I agree, but I would stop fourrees.

Yeah, yeah, I know that that might have proved difficult given that they may have been produced by counterfeiters, but that is exactly why I would want to stop them.  No one knows for sure if they are officially produced, unofficially produced, fakes etc etc. 

Given that there is such discussion over why exactly they were produced, and little of it productive in so far as there are no accepted conclusions, then I can't see that these coins do teach us much about the past. (Feel free to correct me on this one ;D )

Also, it's amazing how much, even though silver isn't that expensive, your heart sinks when you realise that the nice denarius you have just bought/found, is actually silver over a copper core.  And you don't know if they were produced officially or by some sly little faker in a back cave somewhere  :)

Offline Jerome Holderman

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2007, 10:31:04 am »
I would have to stop those tiny AE4's. I like them except they cost me to many layers of skin trying to clean the little buggers ! I bet I have had 6 new sets of fingerprints this year !!  :o

Offline mwilson603

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2007, 10:38:04 am »
I bet I have had 6 new sets of fingerprints this year !!  :o

I will update the Interpol records accordingly  ;)

Offline areich

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2007, 11:01:05 am »
OK, I'm going to get contentious and put forward a new type of coin that I would stop.

Bending the rules slightly I agree, but I would stop fourrees.

Yeah, yeah, I know that that might have proved difficult given that they may have been produced by counterfeiters, but that is exactly why I would want to stop them.  No one knows for sure if they are officially produced, unofficially produced, fakes etc etc. 

Given that there is such discussion over why exactly they were produced, and little of it productive in so far as there are no accepted conclusions, then I can't see that these coins do teach us much about the past. (Feel free to correct me on this one ;D )

Also, it's amazing how much, even though silver isn't that expensive, your heart sinks when you realise that the nice denarius you have just bought/found, is actually silver over a copper core.  And you don't know if they were produced officially or by some sly little faker in a back cave somewhere  :)


There's really no question why they were forged. The difference in silver content was profit for the forgers.
The discussion whether they were also sometimes produced officially often comes up again but so far
there have been no convincing arguments that they were.  That doesn't mean that it might not still be open to debate once there is some fact to support that theory though. So far I've seen none.
Andreas Reich

Offline mwilson603

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2007, 11:39:40 am »
There's really no question why they were forged. The difference in silver content was profit for the forgers.
The discussion whether they were also sometimes produced officially often comes up again but so far
there have been no convincing arguments that they were. That doesn't mean that it might not still be open to debate once there is some fact to support that theory though. So far I've seen none.
( ;D, told you it was contentious)
No one doubts that the reasons for fourrees were increased profits, just who for is the question.  You say that you've seen no facts to support the official production theory.  I'd love to see the facts to support the forgery theory then  ;)

Anyway, this conversation just goes to show why they should never have been made in the first place  :laugh:

Offline areich

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2007, 11:48:05 am »
There's really no question why they were forged. The difference in silver content was profit for the forgers.
The discussion whether they were also sometimes produced officially often comes up again but so far
there have been no convincing arguments that they were. That doesn't mean that it might not still be open to debate once there is some fact to support that theory though. So far I've seen none.
( ;D, told you it was contentious)
No one doubts that the reasons for fourrees were increased profits, just who for is the question.  You say that you've seen no facts to support the official production theory.  I'd love to see the facts to support the forgery theory then  ;)

Anyway, this conversation just goes to show why they should never have been made in the first place  :laugh:

Facts supporting the theory that coins were forged by private individuals to make a profit
like they have been for centuries?
Andreas Reich

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2007, 12:37:38 pm »
I can see three undoubted facts about fourrees. Firstly, they contain significantly less silver, the difference representing the maker's profit. This alone makes it hard to believe they're official, as that would surely undermine confidence in the currency.

Secondly, they're often in extremely good style. So they were made by people who knew exactly what they were doing. I can't help wondering how many people outside the mints had the necessary degree of skill to do it.

Thirdly, no die match with an official coin has ever been found. If they were mint products, I wonder why not?

If the things suddenly ceased to exist, wouldn't that spoil some of the fun in numismatics? Keep doing things like that, and we'll have nothing to do but collecting boring sets of moderns.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline mwilson603

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2007, 01:31:49 pm »
And it's also great fun throwing out contentious ideas as a catalyst to debate and conversation  ;D

Offline areich

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2007, 01:57:30 pm »
I wouldn't want to get rid of the coins I mentioned but I wish there were much less of these,
especially when it comes to the Nicaea ones.
Andreas Reich

Offline Jerome Holderman

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2007, 03:02:39 pm »

Thirdly, no die match with an official coin has ever been found. If they were mint products, I wonder why not?


Are you sure about this third point Robert? I seem to recall a Vespasian in CNG ? Or one of the other big Auctions, that had a die link to an official coin, and I also think I recall a post from Curtis Clay regarding a Severan Denari with a die link to an official coin.... But I could be completely wrong on both counts, the old memory aint what it once was  ::)

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2007, 03:23:17 pm »
Die links to official coins are known, but in many cases the forger's die may just be a mechanical reproduction of the official die, deriving from an offical coin.

Crawford p. 561, no. 8, pl. LXV, 1-2, exhibits a solid-silver and a plated denarius apparently from the same die pair, but the die breaks are different, so the forger's dies must actually be "second generation", derived from an official coin struck from those dies.
Curtis Clay

Offline silvernut

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Re: Which coins would you stop?
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2007, 03:51:52 pm »
Going back to the original question, I believe it was Nero the first one to reduce the percentage of silver in denarii... Well, as a starter of a process that caused high inflation and ended up killing the venerable denarius (the ancient precursor of the Euro, as some point out), I would certainly try to stop him doing that!! (Although, chances are, of course, that I'd end up forming part of the menu of some wild beast in the arena...)  :)

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Ignasi

 

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