barbs, fourees, the wierd and the wonderful

[Bolt]

Does anyone out there share a fascination I have for barbarous coins, Roman and Greek based, their creation, history and production? I also want to post a picture of a nice barb I once owned to start the ball rolling.

[Bolt]

Also this one, previously seen on the id board, with the cool shades...

Does anyone else have any really way out barbs to share?

[Rupert]

Here's my smallest "fallen horseman" Fel Temp: 8mm in size.

Rupert

[Reid Goldsborough]

Does anyone out there share a fascination I have for barbarous coins, Roman and Greek based, their creation, history and production? I also want to post a picture of a nice barb I once owned to start the ball rolling.

Yo! <g> Those are nice specimens. I like barbs too (as long as they're not directed to me <g>). It's interesting to trace and analyze how the iconography and inscriptions diverge from the original, official coinage. I like fourrees too. Weird and wonderful is a great way to describe these categories of ancients. Here's one site of mine on one barbarous/imitative type I collect (with links to other sites on other types near the bottom of the page):

http://rg.ancients.info/thracetets

[gallienus1]

I certainly share your fascination Bolt. Looking at Rupert's tiny barb of the "fallen horseman type" reminds me that barbs are almost always smaller than the originals. I suppose this means they were being used in a sub-economy on the fringes of the empire that was much poorer than the main economy of cities and international trade between civilized states. Yet someone wanted to use coinage with the emperors image, at least for small transactions. Was this because they were struck by chieftains who aspired to the civilized life of a Roman citizen, even though their crude little coins would probably never be used in the larger cities? Or were they struck by local admistrators so that Roman troops could buy cheap goods from locals? My own dearly loved barb was picked from a "bargin bin" 20 years ago in Sydney. So it did make it to be part of the economy in a great city.... only around 1700 years in the future on the other side of the planet.
While you guys are here, can anyone tell me what might be on the reverse? I've never been able to puzzle it out.

Regards,
Steve

[Rupert]

That sure is a beautiful Tetricus I barb! But the engraver obviously spent all his time and labour with the obverse and didn't care about a decent reverse anymore. It was probably meant to be some standing figure, but who? Pax? Salus? Spes? Hilaritas? I'm afraid we'll never know.

Rupert

[PeterD]

Not all barbs are small by any means. The one shown here is 19mm diameter. Some were stamped over official coins - presumably ones no longer in circulation.

I think the reason for the widespread use of barbs is this: Following the collapse of the coinage under Valerian and Gallienus, the drop in value of the antoninianus and denarius meant that the exchange rate with the aureus could no longer be maintained (25 miserable base metal denarii for a gold coin would have been a bargain!). Thus two economies were effectively created. Armies and officials in places like Britain and Gaul wouldn't have wanted to have been paid in de-based coin - they would have been paid in gold or in kind. Therefore there was no reason to ship smaller denominations to these places, never mind the problems of shipping such vast amounts of coins. That would have led to a shortage of small change for use by the locals which opened the way for a purely local manufacture and use of barbs.

Many people assume that forgers would have been hung if caught. No doubt there were laws against forgery but in fact providing everyone accepts the coins at face value it is a crime without a victim. It can even be beneficial by increasing the money supply.

[PeterD]

These are the two fourees that I own.

The first is a copy of the denarius of Augustus with Caius and Lucius Caesars on the reverse. It is so good that I didn't know it was a fouree for some time until I noticed the copper core under one small chip. These fourees are so good -compare this one with the ones for sale on Forum at the moment- that many believe them to be official.

The second fouree is a hybrid (mule) with an obverse of Domitian and a reverse of Vespasian. In fact most fourees seem to have been hybrids, and of course they may have been made much later than the emperor on the obverse.

If a forger was truly intending to deceive wouldn't he have ensured the two sides matched up? After all, it was only a question turning over coin to be copied. Could it be that the forgers hoped that by copying the bust of a dead emperor with non-matching reverse, they would avoid a charge of counterfeiting.

[Reid Goldsborough]

I certainly share your fascination Bolt. Looking at Rupert's tiny barb of the "fallen horseman type" reminds me that barbs are almost always smaller than the originals. I suppose this means they were being used in a sub-economy on the fringes of the empire that was much poorer than the main economy of cities and international trade between civilized states. Yet someone wanted to use coinage with the emperors image, at least for small transactions. Was this because they were struck by chieftains who aspired to the civilized life of a Roman citizen, even though their crude little coins would probably never be used in the larger cities? Or were they struck by local admistrators so that Roman troops could buy cheap goods from locals? My own dearly loved barb was picked from a "bargin bin" 20 years ago in Sydney. So it did make it to be part of the economy in a great city.... only around 1700 years in the future on the other side of the planet.
While you guys are here, can anyone tell me what might be on the reverse? I've never been able to puzzle it out.

Regards,
Steve

That Tetricus I barb is a critical commentary on the "beach ball" soccar balls now used in World Cup play.

[Numerianus]

4 Tetricus The Barbarian

[gallienus1]

Thanks for the identification Rupert. I suspected it was Tertricus but lacking any sort of reference for barbs I was never sure.
A couple of beautiful fourees PeterD! The Domitian portrait has particular life and character. Reading your post got me thinking... What if your are a poor corrupt mint offical in the Roman empire. You would know that all emperors have a use by date, and the new emperor would be want to get his image on the coinage ASAP. So wouldn't you get an instruction to destroy the dies of the previous Emperor and start striking coins from new dies of the new boss? Now, if you didn't destroy that die you could match it up from any reverse die you managed to aquire in the recent past. As dies weren't always replaced at the same time, (as all the ancients that show uneven die wear demonstrate) wouldn't you be likley to have a few reverses handy for just such an opportune moment?
Now to show off a fouree of my own!

Regards,
Steve

[maridvnvm]

I have an interest in Barbs and fourees from the Severans. Here are a couple of my barbs...

The first is quite nice style but blundered legends.

(Obtained right here at Forum)

The second has made a stab at the obverse style and legend attempting IMP CAE L SEPT PERT AVG COS II but not quite making it, the reverse is just a botch.

I will find the others and drag them out too.

Regards,
Martin

[Rupert]

Thanks for the identification Rupert.

You're welcome anytime, but it was no scientific achievement - since these barbs follow no rules, you can only go with the portrait, and this one just looks like Tetricus I.

Rupert

[Rupert]

When do we recognize these irregular coins as such? Only if the producers
a) got the style wrong,
b) bungled the legends or
c) mismatched ob- and reverses.
Since there are many specimens with "good style, bad legends" and vice versa, especially under the Severans and in the Gallic Empire, I strongly suspect that there are quite a few with good legends AND good style, which we may not recognize at all.

Here are two specimens of mine, one fourrée and one irregular but solid coin:

Commodus, fourrée denarius, 2.37g, after RIC 28
Obv. M COMMODUS - ANTONIN AUG, laureate and draped bust right.
Rev. TRP VII - COS III PP, Annona standing left with cornu copiae and corn-ears, modius before her.

The reverse would date the coin to 181-182 AD, though IMP IIII is omitted; also, the obv. is draped, unlike the original, and ANTONINUS lacks the -US. As for the style, note the snake-like cornu copiae! The portrait, on the other hand, is beautiful.

Septimius Severus, irregular denarius, 2.81g
Obv. SEVERUS - PIUS AUG, laureate head right.
Rev. ADVENT AUGG, Galley going left.

This issue is well known (RIC Severus 248, Caracalla 120), but on the originals, Severus returns from battle on horseback, while Caracalla comes home by ship. Besides, of course, on this coin the weak lettering and the portrait style betray the unofficial mint, although the weight is within the range of normal denarii of that time, and I see no traces of plating.

Hope you like them - I do!

Rupert

[Pscipio]

And here's one from my collection:

Philip I. fourrée counterfeit antoninianus, struck after 247 AD.
Obv: IMP M IVL PHILIPPVS AVG, radiate, draped and cuirassed bust right, seen from behind.
Rev: ANNONA AVGG, Annona standing left, holding corn-ears over modius and cornucopiae.
Ø 22 mm, 3.06 g.
Imitating RIC 28c.

Now if the plating would still have been intact - who would have noticed that it's a fourrée?

Lars

[Corduba]

Here is a barb from my collection. I love this one.

It should be a Iulianus bull.

Ignacio.

[Robert_Brenchley]

Here's a Maesa with ANNONA reverse (!) in a white silver-appearing metal; there's no indication that it's a fourree.

[Robert_Brenchley]

And two Magnentius barbs overstruck on Constanrtinian AE3's; the first is a fallen horseman over a wolf and twins, and the second is a chi-rho over a GLORIA EX.

[gavignano]

How far into the later empire have barbs been found? As was said in the posts, often the bad style or bungled legends give it away, but what happens when the official small bronze issues were often badly struck, on irregular flans, of lousy metal, with very crude obverses and reverses - let's say a Johannes or Leo I. How does one now tell the difference?  Joe

[Edessa]

One of my favorites:

Eugene

[Numerianus]

It is a pity that in this thread we discussed simultaneously such a different topics as bards
and fourrees.
To be honest, I have no clear idea whether fourree were offcial or not official. There issues that
the majority of coins were fourrees. How it may happen? The quality of their execution  shows that the
dies were cut by professional engravers. On the other hand, the execution of forgers were more severe
as the crucification.
Here is my Voconius Vitulus. Crawford registered less than 30 dies for the obverse and less than 33 for the
reverse.  The particularity my example is that the metal of the core degraded completely, to the powder, so the coin
 is like a small silver box.  And this damned banker's mark! 

[Rupert]

A very cool coin indeed, and be happy the banker's mark isn't on the portrait (which is quite a fine one)! Must have been an apprentice banker, since I think a fourrée should just NOT get a mark! Now it's just an "empty box", what's the weight of this "coin"?

Rupert

[FORVM AUCTIONS]

We just listed a fouree Pupienus, something one doesn't see every day The style is almost perfect.


 

[gallienus1]

That is an amazing coin Numerianus. Is it possible they could have used a paste of some kind as the core?
How far back do fourees go? I once had a Kroton stater fouree that looked to be a 5th cent B.C. issue. (I wish I had it now!) The oldest fouree I have now is a tetradrachm of Tyre.

Rgards,
Steve

[Robert_Brenchley]

My guess would be that the first fourree was probably made about a week after the first precious metal coin was issued! I seem to remember reading that there's some evidence that the earliest may have involved gluing the foil on rather than soldering; does anyone know whether I'm right?