Author Topic: On bronze disease, coloring, and waxing too soon... (Read 2802 times)

casata137ec · « **on:** May 14, 2011, 03:59:45 pm »

Grrrrr. This bugs me to no end, yet I see it over and over again.

Case in point. A few weeks ago I happened upon a rough, but nice Bruttium janiform/Asklepious, low balled the bid, won (my wife had a cow..."But honey...it was only $15 bucks...I just won't eat lunch for the next week!"). Anyway, I recieved it yesterday, photographed it last night, and while studying the photo, somthing was evident that was not in either the dealer pic or the coin in hand (at first glance; under magnification it was pretty clear): bronze disease.

Ok...this happens...it is kind of a pain because it is waxed, but a quick boil will remove the wax.

Well, it did. The wax is gone, but so is the idiot green paint that was attempting to cover up the BD. As you can tell from pic #2, although not totally rampant, there are several blooms that require attention. Immediatly.

I am not super cleaning man. I am not the re-patinanation police. I am a fan, however, of not trying to cover a botched cleaning job with bad patina's and wax.

Point of this story is: before anything else is done to an infected coin (patina, wax, etc), make damn sure that the infection is halted, otherwise you run the risk of turning a decent coin into a moonscape. My finished product will not be as pretty as the green, but it will last forever.

Chris

PS I'll keep you all apprised of my progress. The process may take a while, but I am in no hurry...and if you are treating BD, neither should you be!

C.

simmurray · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2011, 04:34:49 pm »

Nothing worse than seeing the above, I think its an attempt to pass the problem on to somebody else from the dealer; quick fixes are destroying several coins

Steve

Mayadigger · « **Reply #2 on:** May 17, 2011, 10:59:49 pm »

Ave!

Quote

I am not super cleaning man. I am not the re-patinanation police. I am a fan, however, of not trying to cover a botched cleaning job with bad patina's and wax.

Don't be too discouraged, Chris - at least you discovered the BD before it was too late. Perhaps the person who put the paint on the coin had no conception of BD? This lack of knowledge happens all the time.

Chris, you certainly have the skill and know-how to cure the BD. The first mistake that most folks make is not being compelety sure that the BD has been cured before waxing. When we receive bronze diseased coins for restoration, we always advise our clients to expect a 2-3 month turn-around. (There a are a number of ways we check to see if the BD is cured but too involved to go into just now.) In most BD cases, we do not wax the coin; just buff it up as is.

In the case of your coin, Chris, as you know, once cured, most of tiny pits can be easily smoothed out with DD'd rubber tools. Of course, it will have to be repatinated - again.

Take your time and you'll have a very respectable coin.

Regards,

Kevin

casata137ec · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2011, 08:30:15 am »

In this particular case I do think it was inexperience rather than an attempt at fraud, like you said Kevin, waxing befored cured.

As it turns out (and now that I am cooled down a tad...lol), I think that the coin will turn out a ton better than when I first got it. The little pits I think I will leave alone due to the fact that the natural bronze coloration is actually pretty nice the more I work it and I don't want to have to re-patinate (unless I have to). Most of the coin is covered in that wierd reddish-pink dusty crud (like on an early imperial Alexandrian tet) that does not seem to be in the flan, but on the flan for a change. That big blob of greenish crap on the lower right of the obverse is actually sitting on top of the powdery reddish stuff, also not "in" the flan, but on top. This may actually have been a blessing. (still pisses me off though! lol)

Chris

Dino · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2011, 09:03:08 am »

Chris, would love to see an update as to where you stand on this when you get a chance.

casata137ec · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2011, 06:18:26 pm »

Here is where it stands. Sorry for the shiny pic, it was a dellers night in the process (helps to accentuate the remaining pink crust, as you can see). I have been really working on the obverse. As you can see, the big green blob on the lower right was on top of the pink crud, therefore removable. It will not be FDC, but it will be PDG (pretty darned good) lol. I'll keep you all posted.

Chris

Dino · « **Reply #6 on:** May 18, 2011, 08:14:05 pm »

very nice job. looks better than the original pic you posted!

Mayadigger · « **Reply #7 on:** May 19, 2011, 06:59:46 pm »

Ave Chris!

Much better. Are you pleased with your final result?

Best,

Kevin

casata137ec · « **Reply #8 on:** May 20, 2011, 08:27:23 am »

You guys got me wrong...I am not done.

There is still cleanable materials on this coin. The pink must go...or at least as far as I can without hitting the flan. That was simply an "in progress" pic.

Chris

(Kevin, if I were done, then yes, I would have been OK, not "pleased" per se, but OK with it...still a ton better than the original!

)
C.

Dino · « **Reply #9 on:** May 20, 2011, 09:41:16 am »

How are you getting the pink off?

casata137ec · « **Reply #10 on:** May 20, 2011, 06:37:26 pm »

Dino, one of my clients is a large-ish health care center that also has a dental practice. I was begging for picks a year or so ago and one of the dentists hooked me up with a handful (literal handful) of these little diamond dusted drill bits (like dremel size) of many different sizes and shapes and grit. As it turns out, they fit perfectly in my cheap-o pin double sided vice. I am using a pointy thin one with medium grit for the detailed areas in one side and a super fine grit tear drop shaped one in the other (I use this one to slowly, SLOWLY, reduce the pink stuff on the flan and large smooth areas, I will not be able to fully remove the pink, as I do not want to punch through and hit metal, but I can get it within a micron or two!!!). The next progress pic I take I will photograph them as well.

Chris

renegade3220 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 20, 2011, 07:02:10 pm »

Chris, can you post a pic of all the ones you have soon? I have a dentist friend that comes to the gym I work at part time and I literally just asked him. He asked me what I would want, and I shrugged. He said he would bring me some to experiment with. I would love to show him your arsenal

renegade3220 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 20, 2011, 07:05:23 pm »

He is actually taking a shower at the gym right now and then was gonna come see if I had pics. LOL

EDIT- I showed him this thread and some coins, and he said he is going to bring me an arsinal.

DD dental picks
Burs, the dusted bits
A white stone (super fine DD stone)
Rubber bits
Teeth scrapers
Some other bit types with cutting edges
Scalpals
etc.

And he is going to explain how to use them.

casata137ec · « **Reply #13 on:** May 20, 2011, 07:48:14 pm »

lol...sorry man. Here are pics of the bits and pin vice setup. (also the next installment of the coin).

Chris

renegade3220 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 20, 2011, 08:18:34 pm »

Thanks Chris, and it is looking good.

I don't know why I never thought to ask him before. I have been saying for the past year that I needed to ask a dentist, and I have known this guy for like 8 months, and he owns his own practice. LMAO.

I was reading your post and he was sitting in a chair reading the paper, and the lightbulb went off.

He named a bunch of stuff that I wouldn't have even thought of. He said he was going to bring me a couple of everything to play with, most of the stuff I didn't even know a dentist had. We will see what he actually brings me. Keep your fingers crossed he hooks me up!

Now, to quite hijacking your topic.

DirtyBronze · « **Reply #15 on:** May 21, 2011, 07:07:08 pm »

you win some and you lose a few and this one looks pretty good considerin - it should have a decent resale value at the least - nice job re doing it

casata137ec · « **Reply #16 on:** June 05, 2011, 11:24:51 am »

OK...I'm done. There is somthing everyone who cleans coins needs to realize. The point where cleaning is going to do more harm than good, or my "law of diminishing returns". That is the point where the pits get into the flan, and any and erverything you do actually detracts from the coin in question. I finally hit that point with this one and had to stop. It is much much better than it was originally, but by no means a spectacular success. I have succeeded in halting the BD (it will sit on my windowsill for the next month or two...in the St. Louis humidity any BD that is left will start to bloom and I will start over), and revealing an interesting coin that fits right in to my collection. That is good enough for me!

As for "re-sale" value, by the time my son sells it (long after my passing I am hoping), it will have darkened considerably and will probably be pretty darned nice! Who knows what, if anything, it will sell for 40 years from now!

Chris

PS Now I just have to attrib it...all of the versions I could find on acsearch did not have the prominent tripod (or a tripod at all, for that matter, I may just be missing it)...
C.

Pekka K · « **Reply #17 on:** June 05, 2011, 12:43:26 pm »

Lindgren II - 381 has a tripod.

Pekka K

casata137ec · « **Reply #18 on:** June 06, 2011, 08:29:38 am »

You rock. Thanks Pekka!

Chris

Dino · « **Reply #19 on:** June 06, 2011, 09:48:38 am »

Nice job Chris.

casata137ec · « **Reply #20 on:** June 06, 2011, 10:04:06 pm »

Thanks Dino, I appreciate.

Chris

Dk0311USMC · « **Reply #21 on:** June 19, 2011, 12:08:39 pm »

Nice job. For all of 15 bucks and the care put into it, i'm sure it means more to you now than if you bought it like how it is now for a bit more. You two have been through the ringer together...! Im still hoping some of my BD treatments hold up...

Mayadigger · « **Reply #22 on:** June 26, 2011, 11:47:25 pm »

Ave!

Again, Chris, are you truly satisfied with your final result?

Your coin is so close to finalization, that I wonder why you gave up.

You cured the BD and your Pin/Vice method worked well...and your coin was pretty much stripped of it's original patina from the get go, is that not correct?

If it were mine, here's how I'd finish it...but that's just my opinion, okay, folks?

As the surface is still just a bit rough/crumbly, I'd use a SBBB or a 1000 grit rubber tool (probably both) in a battery-powered Dremel tool to easily smooth off the above...perhaps 60 seconds per each side under running water. Dry and then repatinate.

If you follow the above, you'll be amazed with the final result. A battery-powered Dremel, when used with the correct tools, can be your best friend, trust me, I know.

Quote

As for "re-sale" value, by the time my son sells it (long after my passing I am hoping), it will have darkened considerably and will probably be pretty darned nice! Who knows what, if anything, it will sell for 40 years from now

LOL! And yes, by then your coin will have rested so long that the patina will be described as 'old cabinet'...and that's a very good thing, amigo.

Best regards,

Kevin

News:

Author Topic: On bronze disease, coloring, and waxing too soon... (Read 2802 times)

DirtyBronze