Too many fakes tooling and more why bother collecting ?

[Adrian W]

I am starting to loose interest in collecting ancients because of all the fakes and tooling as well as smoothing of coins just seems to take the fun out of wanting to collect these coins.I see some well known sites that sell and auction off tooled coins but everyone here seems to hate those though on some I can see why.

Until I found this site which is most helpful I had no idea that so many of these existed. It seems every time  I check this site which is daily that more and more fakes pop up and some seem to be harder and harder to tell apart.

I also understand the need to deal with honest dealers such as Joe here and other well known dealers but it seems even some of those cannot always be 100% sure. I do appreciate Joe's guarantee

However I do like the thrill of the hunt especially when it comes to auctions though I know because of what I have learned here to stay off of Ebay which I do.
I look at hundreds of auctions a week rarely for coins looking for that hunt.

I developed a really decent coin collection in just over a year but have not bought one single coin so far this year. I look at Joe's listings often and in fact just sent him some of the excess coins in my collection.

Its a heck of a lot easier collecting 16th and 17th century books, documents, maps and other things. Maybe I will just develop a really great reference collection instead as at least those books are real.

I am starting to understand what Wayne Sayles wrote a few years back in an article in Celator (still waiting to get a current issue after over a year) about the danger of fakes having a major negative impact on this hobby.

I just wonder how many others feel the same way I do ?

It must also put off new collectors all the time who buy a coin only to find its a fake and probably most of them never buy another coin as once bitten twice shy.

Adrian

[Jay GT4]

I have no fear of buying a fake or tooled coin because while I also like the hunt, I only buy from dealers whom I know and trust.  It may seem that there are lots of faked and tooled coins but the reality is that millions of real coins are out there that haven't been tampered with.  We see the junk because we tend to look for it, it catches our attention.  Currently there are almost 4000 genuine coins for sale on Forum.  I've also slowed down on my purchases but not because I'm worrying about fakes but because I want to concentrate on higher grade or scarcer coins and that takes money!

[El Reye]

Last time I checked, 16th and 17th century books, documents, maps and other things can  be Faked just like anything else. All in all collect what you enjoy collecting.
Cameron

[carthago]

When I first got into collecting ancients, which really wasn't that long ago, I didn't worry about fakes at all.  I simply assumed as long as I purchased from top quality dealers, I was probably getting genuine coins.  Worse came to worse, they'd refund a forgery.  I didn't really know about tooling.

Fast forward a few years and a bit more experience, and I've found a few problem coins in my collection...fakes and tooled...some very expensive coins!  I've been able to return them all, some several years later.  I'm definitely more cautious about my purchases, researching first, having someone view coins in an auction before I bid if possible, looking at many other examples of the type, etc.

I don't trust my ability to spot tooled bronze coins so, for the most part, I stick to silver.  This also goes for gold.  Especially gold.  I've found several gold coins in auctions recently that were in prior auctions and have been since tooled and it is not noted in the auction.  These are top auction houses.  Very concerning, so I stay away from anything but silver, which I believe is a lot harder to tool convincingly.  I did have one denarius that I discovered as being amazingly tooled, and it is a very dangerous coin.   I wrote about it here on Forvm https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=85777.0.  If you run across one of these, you're going to have to be some ninja tooling expert or you'll never detect it.  I don't think this is typical.  At least I hope.

Frankly, I think it adds to the challenge of the hobby more than discourage me.  I need to do my homework, improve my skills, and continue to buy from reputable business people who will stand behind their product. 

You have a really nice collection, btw, Adrian.  Don't give up. 

Chris

[Andrew McCabe]

Interesting thread.

I agree with all the respondents so far - there's really nothing to worry about. My collection is forgery-free and almost toolie-free despite it being focused on bronzes. I didn't adopt any special expertise in getting it there. I just have consistently bought from long-term-relationship dealers, learnt about the coins and the dealers slowly over time, and on ebay I personally know the dealers whom I buy rare or nice coins from.

When I've bought coins with uncertain photos, surfaces or whatever, from dealers I don't know on eBay, I've got burnt badly sometimes, just as any other beginner on Forvm. Perhaps I'm burnt at a lower rate, but the same universal rules apply to me as to everyone else. I do however really get frustrated with posters on Forum who write "I bought this unknown coin from an unknown ebay dealer, and now I'm not sure if it's genuine/tooled". If you follow the rules (either have expertise in the coin, or personally know the dealer) you never end up with fakes or toolies. So do so, and enjoy your hobby.

It's worth mentioning one specific source of tooled coins: Lanz: who did disrupt the ebay market with an apparent good provenance for bad coins. However his toolies are not reappearing in the good-quality retail market, and his own sales are no longer good provenance.  Toolies and fakes continue to appear from sellers whom I don't know personally. If you follow the rule (either have expertise in the coin, or personally know the dealer) you will easily avoid them.

This is not a new problem of course. 19th century collectors and earlier had it worse - with no photos it was impossible to check style. There are vast quantities of 19th century fakes around. With the resources at our disposal today, it's much easier to avoid toolies/fakes than 150 years ago.

[David Atherton]

This is not a new problem of course. 19th century collectors and earlier had it worse - with no photos it was impossible to check style. There are vast quantities of 19th century fakes around. With the resources at our disposal today, it's much easier to avoid toolies/fakes than 150 years ago.

Excellent point! With the huge amount of educational material around today (books, internet, etc.) one should almost never have to worry about fake or tooled coins. Of course the resources have to be used.

Please don't give up!

[rover1.3]

Adrian, I can feel your concern. Fakes are becoming better and better and yes, even the most knowledgeable collectors and dealers are unable today to detect them always right.
You either live with that, becoming better and better yourself in spotting fakes and minimizing the risk as much as you can (but not eliminating it entirely), buying only long provenance coins only from really trustworthy dealers on areas you really know or you give up if you feel it is not worth while entering all this trouble. The choice is yours, it is up to you to decide.

People who support that there is no risk are either dealers who want to sell or collectors who don't know much or they haven't already realized how big the problem is or those who don't want to admit how big the problem is. There are many people who feel nice to have a hobby and they don't want to spoil this entering the adventure of knowing the truth. So, they choose to believe, to be "believers". It is a common human behavior.
To me, it is absolutely normal and OK if everybody wants to think and believe his collection or inventory is forgery-free; the truth of course may be entirely different...

The only thing you have to do is to ask yourself honestly whether you enjoy all this or not and do accordingly.
Do not care for what the others think or do. It is you who decide since it is your wallet we are talking about here.

[Andrew McCabe]

I personally believe that if you buy from trustworthy dealers whom you know, 95% of the risk is covered. Thus I'm pretty relaxed. In that case you don't need so much of your own expertise because you are paying for someone else's trusted expertise. Long-provenance or personal expertise is not needed if someone you know to be an honest diligent expert (i.e. a dealer you trust) has examined the coin, and described it properly. I've looked at enough coins in my life to be pretty sure that when I say something is ok, it is ok, and a trusted-dealer should be in the same position. So just relax, but don't ever expect to get cheap, good coins off unknown sources e.g. ebay dealers you don't already know and trust. Just buy from trusted sources and you will be fine. Please expect to pay a few dollars more for the experience (which saves you in the long term as it keeps your collection fake-toolie-free).

However as context to the original post, I can't help but think of Adrian's prior comments, which shed a lot of light about the fakes/tooling dilemma he's got himself into:

... as a person who buys items at auctions all of the time and then buys them with the intent to re-sell.

I have no interest in these coins at all as I have them already but I enjoy trolling auction listings for items of interest

I was doing my usual auction trolling yesterday for things to buy and sell and take what I find and make money on...

you could actually get a collection like this by doing the same thing as I do,find stuff to sell take the profit and buy coins to add to your collection. Check car boot sales,local auctions etc

About 15 months ago I decided to start collecting ancients again I started with $300 from money I had made on ebay  in order to buy coins I have to keep rolling funds over,my collecting style is very diversified as I buy coins I like so I am a magpie.... What I am trying to say is it can be done and anyone can do it, I have sold over 100 coins that I would like to have kept but needed to sell those to buy others  I used that money to buy ones I really want.

Things generally sell less than they do on Ebay than a dealer site thats been my experience ... However I rarely loose money on things I buy in fact I generally make money.I take out what I want as I buy group lots then I sell the rest and often get back what I spent and more.Then that money goes to buy what I want.

It is possible to make money on coins as I do that quite often but I take the profit to buy what I want to keep though ...I buy other stuff I can flip and keep the difference for my coin fund.

I buy and sell lots of items on Ebay

I gather from this (and similar messages go back a lot further) that Adrian has no intention of taking our good advice. In fact his openly stated strategy is to buy from unknown sources on ebay and hope for the best. This of course has its consequences: fakes & toolies. So it is hardly surprising that Adrian is now concerned. Still as his declared buying strategy is completely opposed to our carefully-thought-through and expert advice, I'm not sure our advice will have much effect.

[Adrian W]

Andrew,
Believe me I take the advise here very seriously and I do buy lots of items at auctions I am after a lot this morning but rarely coins unless its from a very reliable source as mentioned here. I buy at auctions with the intent to re-sell but its generally not coins its rare books which I then take the profit and then put that money into my coin collection. Which their is nothing wrong with that.

Sometimes I do buy group lots of coins though not very often keep what I want and sell the rest.Like the J.Caesar lot I bought of which I kept one coin and sold the majority on Forum with Joe.

I do enjoy the thrill of the hunt and their is nothing wrong with that so as a result its rare for me to loose money on coins.I just sent Joe a bunch of coins to sell and others are listed in other places.

When I see main auction houses selling and noted tooled coins and some for very good money then on here I see every one hates them its kind of confusing as to whether to buy coins that are tooled or not.

I just wonder though how many people get turned off collecting only to find its a fake.

It's just a general feeling I have.

It's also very difficult to fake a 16th and 17th century book as I have never come across that as the paper has to match as does the water mark,print style spelling etc etc.

So please do not attack me for looking at auctions as a way to fund my collection as its how I choose to do so.

[Andrew McCabe]

So please do not attack me for looking at auctions as a way to fund my collection as its how I choose to do so.

Adrian

Your collecting strategy has exposed you to many more fakes and toolies, as compared with my collecting strategy. I'm not attacking your choice of strategy, but I want to point out clearly that your choice has consequences for the composition of your collection. If you follow this path, then you can't then complain about exposure to fakes and toolies. It is a consequence of your chosen collecting path. Such a high-risk purchasing strategy might perhaps work if accompanied by a very high level of expertise, but then if you had such high levels of expertise I suspect you would not be concerned about buying fakes or toolies.

There's no free lunch on eBay. A number of us have given clear and simple advice how to avoid fakes and toolies, and you are choosing not to follow it. That's ok with me. Go ahead. Take the risk if you wish. Accept the consequences too.

Andrew

postscript: I admire your openness about your preferred strategy, and you've made some great purchases e.g. the group lots from the Seaver collection. But since you've continually advocated a strategy that is opposed to expert advice (i.e. trusted-retail-approach), I feel more than justified in responding to your concerns on fakes and toolies by pointing out the consequence of your chosen ebay-based purchasing strategy, and by reminding Forvm participants that buying from trusted retail sources such as Forvm is essentially a risk-free way of collecting. It is a straightforward choice whether to collect in a safe or risky manner.

[Molinari]

It's also very difficult to fake a 16th and 17th century book as I have never come across that as the paper has to match as does the water mark,print style spelling etc etc.

In terms of faked rare books, you are mistaken.  There are many faked rare books that would fool even experts.  It isn't as big of a problem as with coins, but it is a problem and I wouldn't buy a rare book unless I followed the same principles I do when buying a rare coin.  

[Adrian W]

Andrew,
As to my buying strategy all I was saying in regard to that is that you frequently loose money on coins when you sell them to me that's a no worse strategy than what I do which is use money I make on what I sell to buy coins with.
I do once in a while like those from the Seaver Collection buy in bulk which is my favorite thing to do take out what I want and sell the rest. That way I actually make money on a coin
when I sell rather than loose money and I fund my collection as cheaply as possible.

Since learning of this site I have not bought any tooled coins or fakes in over a year and those I did buy I did get my money back on all.

 I see you do frequently sell coins yourself but seems rarely if ever on this site ?

As I think you have some great coins of which I have bought a few it would be nice to see some of those for sale here as I am sure it would give more of us here the opportunity to buy them and help Joe as well.


Off to the dentist.

[Andrew McCabe]

I see you do frequently sell coins yourself but seems rarely if ever on this site ?

As I think you have some great coins of which I have bought a few it would be nice to see some of those for sale here as I am sure it would give more of us here the opportunity to buy them and help Joe as well.

Fair point, and separately discussed recently with Joe. Here is my answer: Forvm is in a different continent and different customs zone from me, in fact one with regulatory controls on coin import. So there was the issues of hassle and risk of shipping a large lot to the US, customs declarations (just try going into a post-office, or even to fedex in Europe and explaining you want to ship 100 coins. I've tried it. They both just refuse. So you have to find 'different words' on the customs form (which affects insurability), packaging, MOU concerns, money-transfer and forex cost issues (tear-inducing), paypal charges, investigations by fiscal authorities here if you receive more than de-minimis foreign proceeds into paypal or bank accounts (they assume you are a drug dealer), speed, etc. and my worries about all the foregoing. Also, I've had a really terrible experience with one different dealer consignment to the US (absolutely not Forvm), which made me realise that I couldn't just pop around and pick up my coins if there's an issue. It was (and is ... the experience continues) a very painful process.

The alternative was to consign to a frequent Forvm participant (Richard) right on my doorstep who quickly published my coins in a lovely printed catalogue that I get to keep, with my own numismatic annotations, and paid me in my own currency or with coin swaps.

All that noted, I've said to Joe that I'm in principle happy to consign some coins. But the routine hassles of the intercontinental consignment process are to me rather big stresses, and I've a very low threshold for dealing with such stresses. Moderators/Joe: you've my permission to delete this post if you think it an inappropriate subject for on-list discussion; perhaps the mechanisms of consignment are easier addressed off-list.

[Adrian W]

Andrew,
I have bought many items and coins from the home country over the years some quite large lots and I have yet had any issues with getting them over here or lost but I do understand your concern.
It would still be nice to see some here.

I understand you do come to the U.S. from time to time why not simply bring some with you

Just a thought and suggestion, I have 32kg of books in transit from the UK should be here next week.

Adrian

[4to2CentBCphilia]

I don't trust my ability to spot tooled bronze coins so, for the most part, I stick to silver.  This also goes for gold.  Especially gold.  I've found several gold coins in auctions recently that were in prior auctions and have been since tooled and it is not noted in the auction.  These are top auction houses.  Very concerning, so I stay away from anything but silver, which I believe is a lot harder to tool convincingly. 
Chris

So................. now for the bad news on silver. Not so hard to tool I'm afraid

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=38696.50

BTW As with you, I buy only from a few well established dealers. The auctions they run are high profile auctions and a fake is often spotted sooner....or later. In the latter case, refunds are expected, regardless of price (ask HJB about the Athenian Deka.....I believe there is a lawsuit still pending) Buying through any other source, will bear the risks of no true guarantee.

[JBF]

Dealing with a shady dealer is like reaching into a box of rattlesnakes, if you know what you are doing, you can do quite well (a big _If_).  On the other hand, if you don't, you're going to get bit!!  Personally, I don't have that kind of confidence/foolhardiness.  As Dirty Harry says, "a man's gotta know his limitations."

[areich]

But what is the big prize in a box of rattlesnakes? 

[Lloyd Taylor]

But what is the big prize in a box of rattlesnakes? 

Not being bit!   

[El Reye]

But what is the big prize in a box of rattlesnakes? 

Actually they are quite tasty, and the skins make great hat bands.

Cameron