Going to my first coin fair.

[Paddy]

I am going to my first coin fair this saturday. Now, we are told as beginners that we should try to handle as many coins as possible in real life to get a true feeling for what is genuine and what is not.

Can you just touch and look at however many coins you like, even if you are not buying? I know it's stupid but I am a bit unsure what would be the correct procedure. I would certainly prefer not to make a fool of myself.

Patrik

[Akropolis]

I guess it depends on how busy the dealer is. It is not fair to occupy a seat at his table while others, buyers, are trying to get a look at his stock. If his table is empty, tell him you are just looking for now and ask if he would mind. Just my opinion.
PeteB

[Andrew McCabe]

I am going to my first coin fair this saturday. Now, we are told as beginners that we should try to handle as many coins as possible in real life to get a true feeling for what is genuine and what is not.

Can you just touch and look at however many coins you like, even if you are not buying? I know it's stupid but I am a bit unsure what would be the correct procedure. I would certainly prefer not to make a fool of myself.

Patrik

I don't know that there's rules as such, but coin fairs tend to be very busy, and my own rule of thumb is to ask to look at stuff under the glass trays that at least provoke my interest and the vague possibility that I might buy if the price is right. I also sometimes ask to look at stuff I know I can't afford, e.g. trays of gold aurei, if the dealer is really not busy, and is aware I'm just looking for pleasure. Bear in mind many coins will have no visible price sticker, so you are fine with asking to see the tray of what interests you and then discover that they are pricey. Just be aware that if there's someone behind or beside you waiting to look at the same stuff, he may have $9999 in cash in his pocket and want to buy. So use your senses. Develop spatial awareness for the evidently serious customers with money in their pocket and don't impede them too much. It's ok to look at the tray of apparently expensive coins and handle a few coins for a minute and then say "these are very lovely coins, I only wish I could afford them" but it's not ok to say that after 10 minutes! Do handle the coins by the edges. Don't drop them or put fingerprints on them!

It's ok to ask for a "best price" or discount, or to say you'll think about a coin and gracefully withdraw.

Pick boxes are the fastest route to handling and looking at a lot of coins. You can while away 20 minutes looking through stuff without anyone blinking an eye. But I guess the same general rule of thumb applies - there should be an off-chance of finding something to buy. There is not much point spending 15 minutes rooting around large byzantine bronzes if your only interest is in small greek silver.

NB it's physically super-exhausting, usually hot sweaty and cramped. So, dress as light as you dare, bring as small a bag as you dare (or no bag): a little shoulder satchel makes more sense than a back-pack that'll knock everyone in the face. Find out on the internet if there's a cloakroom and leave your puffa-jacket there. Coin fairs usually have refreshment areas, so no need to bring your own so long as you are willing to pay for a tea and a bun. Never put your bag down on the dealers glass table: on the ground please. Sometimes there's a customer chair at each stand: the dealer hopes that the serious buyer with $9999 in his pocket will occupy it. So prepare for a lot of standing and bending over.

There are often freebies, e.g. free numismatic magazines, perhaps coin supplies, auction catalogues etc. Use the same rule of thumb as in choosing what coins to ask to see: take what interests you but only if there's an offchance you might want to do business in the future with the company giving the freebies.

It helps to smile and be friendly with dealers, and it always helps to tell them your collecting area or interests. They may have stuff behind the counter, or they may offer you to handle something very nice just for fun. Generally, behaving like a rounded human being gets you a long way. You may well find a common interest with someone, e.g. browsing the same pickbox. Feel free to suggest having a tea break together!

Above all, endeavour to have fun.

PS: one extra weird tip that took me a long time to appreciate: it also helps to polish-up a bit. I already suggested spatial awareness for the serious collectors: but the exact same applies in reverse. If you usually dress like the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz (and, frankly, many coin collectors are immune to dress-sense), today might be the day to dress like you are visiting your grandmother or will be travelling in first class: comfy yet smart-casual, with your hair combed and a friendly smile on your face.

[areich]

Look the dealer in the eye and say hi before touching the coins, don't make any sudden moves, don't look suspicious or weird. Most dealers are nice and most collectors don't buy coins at most tables they visit. Don't go out of your way to tell a dealer that you can't afford his coins if you want to look at them. Some dealers are not nice but there's nothing you can do to change that. As Pete says, never butt in or block the table for a more serious customer.

[Jay GT4]

It's been said before but I'll say it again.  Always ask if you can handle a coin.  Never open a glass display case without asking.  Try not to handle things in a way that may look like you will pocket it.  Lots of theft goes on at coin shows because tables can be very busy so try to handle coins in full view of the dealer.

[Andrew McCabe]

It's been said before but I'll say it again.  Always ask if you can handle a coin.  Never open a glass display case without asking.  Try not to handle things in a way that may look like you will pocket it.  Lots of theft goes on at coin shows because tables can be very busy so try to handle coins in full view of the dealer.

This is of course right. The odd thing is that I didn't even think to add it to my list as I would never even dream of opening a coin case myself, and one is instinctively aware to always keep the coin you are handling in full visibility. The same applies to pick boxes, and if you are assembling a group from a pick box, then put the coins down on a visible area of the table. No need for paranoia about this, as Andreas said, don't act weird or suspicious. Look at the coin as carefully as you want, just in plain sight.

One other point: bring cash if you intend to buy, not a credit card. There's a lot of cash transactions at coin fairs. If you don't intend to buy, bring your bank debit card so that you can change your mind!

[cliff_marsland]

I would echo the others' common-sense tips and also add that coin shows often hold great surprises.  75% I usually find something nifty other than what I went into the show looking for.  Once I went in looking for a particular common Constantinople Solidus and found an affordable Jerusalem example instead.  Most of the other times, it's whatever was the coolest coin that was in my budget.

The pick bins (although that's a subjective title), one dealer has pick bins of $25k Egyptian gold and usually fifth century Solidi, what we'd generally think of pick bins are the $50 and under sections.  I look through the cheapie bins if I have time, although I like the middle end pick bins best (such as $100 or $200).  I found a really cool Lysimachus Tetradrachm in one such hoard of them. 

Let's not forget the people.  I usually know some of the people at the shows I attend.  It's always nice to bump into old friends.   

I would also 100% agree. Don't go opening cases, although I've never even thought of doing that. The coins are under glass for a reason.  I also usually don't waste the dealers' time by looking at something far out of my price range.

The great majority of people attending are honest, aboveboard, people.  I can see how theft could be a problem.  The dealers are often distracted, and there are many times a dishonest person could palm a coin.

I always go in with a budget in mind and usually stick to it.  Rarely there's a snobby dealer here and there, but most won't chase away customers who are willing to spend a few hundred.

I also have a game plan.  Unless there's an item that really catches my eye, I'll ask for the boxes with my core interests firsts and then branch out to the secondary interests.  Unless I'm on a Byzantine kick, the Julio-Claudian box is generally first.  I have many interests, so I'll sometimes look at five or so different fields of interest.

There's also the thrill of a good deal.  I got a really good deal on a Domitian Saecular Games Sestertius the last coin show I attended.

[areich]

If you have developed a relationship with a dealer or are just friendly enough, you CAN look at coins you could never afford. Just make room for other people who may or may not have the money to spare. But really, if you're not weird, you're an above average customer already.

[Andrew McCabe]

But really, if you're not weird, you're an above average customer already.

 

Andreas and I are trading the same point between us. Many of us are weird of course, me included. Coin collecting is an often solitary hobby that ordinarily requires few social skills. One sees that immediately at coin fairs; people dress, groom, and act weird and often move according to the principles of Boyle's law for gas molecules, bouncing randomly with little apparent awareness that other people share the same space, pushing in to view coin offerings without greeting or making eye contact with a seller, or acknowledging bystanders. It takes just a very little effort to rise above the weird average.

Of course the fact that Patrik thought to politely ask about etiquette immediately places him in the top decile!

[cliff_marsland]

There's only two types of shows I generally go to; coin shows (if there are ancient dealers) and old time radio (show) shows.  Both are a blast to go to, though OTR has a bit more (hobby) politics and Byzantine intrigue.  Believe it or not, old time radio sets are almost never at an OTR show.  Surprisingly, those are two distinct hobbies, although I do both.

At a coin show, I usually look at all the dealers' stuff first, and then buy the best coin available.  At an OTR show, if there's transcription records I'll make a beeline for that box.  There's almost zilch chance of an I Love A Mystery or a 1930 Amos & Andy being there, but one never knows.  Then after the transcription box, then it's time to say the hellos!  The original actors are dying off at an alarming rate, but it's cool to meet any who show up. To a man or woman, they're almost always the friendliest, most gracious people you could meet.

Usually my top goal at a coin show is to find the nicest Nero Sestertius in my price range.  I almost always find something else.

[SC]

Great advice.  I especially like Andrew's survival trips.  Sounds like the Burma Road March but it is true, even a moderate sized show can leave you tired, thirsty and hungry with aching back, neck and feet.  But it is great fun.

A couple more tips.  If you think you will have a chance to trawl through pick/junk bins, trays etc. then take some wet wipes and/or purell hand cleaner.  You will get very dirty hands which will pose a bit of an impediment when it comes to eating that crumpet. hotdog, pretzel, etc. let alone looking at a book or clean tray-coins.

Also unless absolutely packed you should try to take a quick run around the show floor only eyeing the tables.  Make mental note of who has what - especially if you are looking for pick bins.  Then set up your attack route and go back.

I used to go methodically and in detail around a show floor.  Two years ago at our big annual show I ran out of time (and money) only half way through.  Last year I spent all my money and THEN found a couple more dealers with great stuff.  This year I did a quick run around, found the dealers I wanted to start with and hit them first.  I ran out of money again but this time after going through the good stuff.  Believe me it is better to find a bin of over-20mm Seleukid bronzes for 10 Euros each before finding the worn late Roman bronzes for 5 each bin.

You should also ask the prices of pick bins, though many are labelled.  "X each" is a good answer.  "Just pick some and we will talk prices after" is a bad answer unless you already know the dealer and have a good relationship.  I did that a couple of times only to have people asking crazy prices after.  In such cases you can simply say no thanks and return them to the bin.

Also, if you do pick several from a bin you can ask for a lower per unit price. 

Finally, I have found over the years that balancing honesty, manners and interest is the best way forward.  As others have said don't be seen as a person who is blocking access (to trays, bins or the dealer) when things are busy, especially if you detect serious buyers around.  Also, if you get nothing but gruff responses just give up the conversation attempts. 

But if you can, you should engage them in honest discussion of your interests.  Explain what you collect or are looking for.  Though dealers want to make big sales to anyone with the money I find that most actually respect and are more interested in someone with a genuine interest and $40 to spend then someone with $4000 to spend on an "investment".  Not that the person with $4000 won't get the attention they deserve but the dealer will understand or connect more with the person with real interests regardless of money.

When I first visited one well known dealer in the Middle East I spoke to him for a long time in his shop.  I stopped talking whenever other customers came in - even though they were almost always tourists with little interest - but we continued talking when he was not busy.  After 30-40 minutes when I started looking at his coins he brought over some pick boxes marked $50 and $75.  When I looked at him he said "don't worry, those are tourist prices, they are $10 each for you."  In reality I would have placed them in the $25 range as they were nice coins.  Obviously you can't expect that from most dealers, especially at shows where there are no "tourist prices" but you see my point.

Shawn

[Andrew McCabe]

Doug, the world's expert in fishing great coins out of pick-boxes, has of course written on the subject:

in 2001

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/acmshow.html

and in 2011

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/coinshow2011.html

I recall bumping into Ted Buttrey at Coinex a couple of years back. Ted is no longer a spring chicken: much of his famous archaeological discoveries were made in the 1950s after all (that's seven decades ago). We retired to the tea room and chatted about coins and ancient history for an hour or so. It didn't matter that we weren't looking at coins, just being at the show gave us a chance to share face to face rather than by email.

Some shows have "professional previews", higher priced entrance for the first half-day session. If you are intending to buy high quality coins it's often well worth the higher entrance price, both because the better coins go quickly, and because it's less crowded and dealers have more time for you (and automatically assume you are serious if in the preview session). At the reverse end of the show, if it's a two or three day event don't expect to see many of the travelling dealers by the afternoon of the third day: they pack up early.

Don't forget to look at the coin books and supplies stands.

[Molinari]

Don't forget to look at the coin books and supplies stands.

That's very good advice.  I find shows are the best place to get books since shipping of books is slow and expensive and you can preview them first.

[dougsmit]

As one of the major proponents of handling as many coins as you can, let me make one thing perfectly clear:  Don't feel it is your place to handle coins that you know without doubt that you are not going to buy.  When I suggested handling coins I meant as a way of finding the ones you want to buy not as a way of killing time on Saturday afternoon.  I very rarely ask to handle a coin selling for $500 and have only a couple coins in this price bracket in my collection.  Beginners, in my opinion, do not need to handle high end coins.  They will learn as much from handling junk box coins as they will from EF sestertii.  If they are both beginners and stinking rich to the point that they really do plan to buy blindly thousand dollar coins in their first outing, they should tell the dealer straight up that money means nothing to them so he can gouge them in a manner appropriate to their stupidity.  I would suggest someone in that high financial and low experience position to hire a personal shopper type dealer who can find what they want for them but is not likely to have it in stock.  I recently became aware of a buyer who wanted a $1000 bracket Alexander III lifetime tetradrachm.  Small dealers with low stock levels can be very interested in this sort of business since they quite likely know a source of many things they do not have.  Certainly this purchase method will cost a bit more than  the do it yourself way unless, of course you allow for the decades of study you save by not starting at the bottom and working your way up to the good stuff.  All you have to do is find a dealer you trust and tell him what you want.  The trust part is the hard part since you could ask this trusted dealer what he might suggest for you after telling him what it is about coins that you find attractive. 

For 'the rest of us', I suggest looking through boxes of coins contained in envelopes (not staples 2x2's) in the area and price bracket that you are prepared to buy.  That means that if you have no money for coins, all you need to handle are the $5 junk boxes and then you should but a couple just to support the dealer's decision to have a junk box at the show.  When a dealer says "Oh, I didn't bring that material to the show," he is saying "and I'm not interested in your business either" whether or not that was his intent.   Unless a show is small with only one or two ancient dealers, search around for one that fits your price level for that day and hope to find something you can not leave behind. 

I am going to a show on Friday.  Experience suggests that I will buy about $500 worth of coins but the question remains whether that will be one $500 coin, five $100 coins or fifty $10 junk box specials.   My web articles linked above by Andrew cover this question except they were fictionalized to fail to mention that all three of the collectors were actually me.  Most shows will see all three of the 'me' versions in operation so I suspect I will end up buying a $250 coin and $250 worth of assorted cheaper items after handling perhaps $5000 worth of coins in the process.  For some dealers, that makes me more trouble than I'm worth.

Please don't go to the show with no hope of paying the price of admission unless you will just look at things in the cases (one side only) at tables not otherwise filled with paying customers.  The other collector you crowd out might be me!

[Andrew McCabe]

I would suggest someone in that high financial and low experience position to hire a personal shopper type dealer who can find what they want for them but is not likely to have it in stock.  I recently became aware of a buyer who wanted a $1000 bracket Alexander III lifetime tetradrachm.  Small dealers with low stock levels can be very interested in this sort of business since they quite likely know a source of many things they do not have.  Certainly this purchase method will cost a bit more than  the do it yourself way unless, of course you allow for the decades of study you save by not starting at the bottom and working your way up to the good stuff.

Bit off topic for the "coin fair pick box" discussion but from time to time I do meet those in the 'personal shopper' sphere of coin buying, and those who help them. If you are really in the market for the very best Caesar portrait that money can buy, a couple of bid increments and a dealer commission percentage on top aren't going to worry you so long as the coin is 'right', in fact a 50% uplift against a price-conscious-price is ok for the 'right' coin. The important thing you want is that the coins which you buy be genuine and not flawed and of high quality, and that you don't have to spend 20 hours per week scouring the internet and registering to bid, and attending live auctions at 3am, to find these coins, because those cash-rich persons are likely to be very time poor. They are making a wise choice within their resource limits, which is time, just as wise a choice as those time-rich persons who are able to spend a saturday hunting rarities out from fleabay or pick boxes. They may in fact not be low-experience at all: they may know the coins intimately but just have no time to go to the market.

[Carausius]

Patrik:
I hope you will let the Forum know how you fared at the faire. You received lots of grat advice from this thread. Personally, I love coin shows. One of the downsides of the internet coin market is the gradual death of coin shows. There was a large, semi-annual show in my vicinity that used to attract many large ancient dealers which recently cut back to one show per year because of dwclining attendance and dealer participation. I have noticed a decline in the number of ancients dealers that attend this show as well. Certainly, it is expensive for a dealer to travel and cover a hotel room stay, meals and show charges (many large shows will charge $300 for a single table) from a declining attendance vs. selling online at no additional cost. I think acients collectors more than any other group benefit from attending shows. Nothing beats personally inspecting coins before purchase and interacting with the more friendly dealers. If you are engaging, you will often learn interesting information about the market or the coins. 

[dougsmit]

Patrik:
I hope you will let the Forum know how you fared at the faire. You received lots of grat advice from this thread. Personally, I love coin shows. One of the downsides of the internet coin market is the gradual death of coin shows. There was a large, semi-annual show in my vicinity that used to attract many large ancient dealers which recently cut back to one show per year because of dwclining attendance and dealer participation. I have noticed a decline in the number of ancients dealers that attend this show as well. Certainly, it is expensive for a dealer to travel and cover a hotel room stay, meals and show charges (many large shows will charge $300 for a single table) from a declining attendance vs. selling online at no additional cost. I think acients collectors more than any other group benefit from attending shows. Nothing beats personally inspecting coins before purchase and interacting with the more friendly dealers. If you are engaging, you will often learn interesting information about the market or the coins.  

Well said!  I believe you will find that $300 is a low price for a table these days.  The table price is small compared to having to live out of a suitcase dropped off in an expensive room you will spend little time inside, eating overpriced food and sitting there all day having to deal with people like me.  Still, as you say, there is no better way to buy than face to face with coin in hand (and not in some kind of stapled/welded holder).  I will try to remember to stop suggesting beginners handle coins because this thread pointed out that some think it appropriate to do that when not actually intending to buy.  You will learn just as much by buying blindly from identified fake-sellers but the difference is what you will learn and the price of the education.  The hobby is a lot of fun but I'm glad I don't have a show to visit every week as do some of the dealers.  I'm tired just thinking about it.  

[areich]

You just need some very basic social skills to know when it is appropriate to look at coins you cannot afford. I don't usually look at the high-end coins since there's no point but if the opportunity presents itself and the dealer is friendly, I will. Just like I will view coins in auctions (the few times that I get the opportunity) that I don't intend to bid on. To the people showing me the trays it doesn't matter and of course I will usually bid on something.

[Lucas H]

I hope you will let the Forum know how you fared at the faire.

Yes, please do report back on your experience. 

[Paddy]

I hope you will let the Forum know how you fared at the faire.

Yes, please do report back on your experience.  

I'm really happy that people show interest in my thread, and I am grateful that folks took the time to give advice. Unfortunately, because of the many people at coin shows - I would assume that coin shows always attract a lot of people - I  personally can't relax enough to sit down and really examine the coins. Besides, I don't know what the heck I am doing or how I would go about examining the coins in the first place. I should have known ahead of time and not gone, from now on I am sticking to the internet.

So, in short, to anyone that has never been to a coin fair my feedback would be this:

Follow the advice given by the other members, between them they probably have twohundred years of experience. I don't think I can add anything to what they have already offered.

[Andrew McCabe]

I'm really happy that people show interest in my thread, and I am grateful that folks took the time to give advice. Unfortunately, because of the many people at coin shows - I would assume that coin shows always attract a lot of people - I  personally can't relax enough to sit down and really examine the coins. Besides, I don't know what the heck I am doing or how I would go about examining the coins. I should have known ahead of time and not gone, from now on I am sticking to the internet.

So, in short, to anyone that has never been to a coin fair my feedback would be this:

Follow the advice give by the other members, between them they probably have twohundred years of experience. I don't think I can add anything to what they have already offered.

Hi Paddy

What went wrong with your coin fair visit? Your feedback seems to be that you didn't enjoy it and you regret going 
so from that perspective your (own) opinion would be really valuable to everyone here. As I enjoy coin fairs it's tough for me to work out what your day was like. Were there too many people? Were you not able to find the pick-boxes? Was it not possible to find any coins you liked? Were the coins all modern?

I'm now really curious what it was about your experience that makes you say "I should have known ahead of time and not gone". I guess you were maybe frustrated by the discomfort, but even so it would help us advise others if you shared your experience.

Andrew

[Paddy]

OK, I'll give you a little more feedback on my experience of the coin fair.

When I say "I should have known", it is more a reflection on my personality than the coin fair in itself. In any endeavour, your own frame of mind and perspective is one of the most important variables. Because I a) tend to not be able to relax when there are lots of people around, and b) feel like I HAVE TO buy after having looked at the coins, it's stressful and perhaps not the best place for me to buy coins.

A more general variable is the lack of knowledge. If you feel like you are not really qualified to examine coins, you tend to feel like an idiot in the wrong place.

Because of some of the comments in the thread, I feel inclined to mention here that I never had the intention of looking at coins I couldn't afford. I only had in mind to look at coins that was within my budget limit, but because the aforementioned personality traits, I didn't give myself enough time to look (and have as good a time as I could have had). I should have planted my butt on a chair and just request to see coins and taken the time to look at them carefully, and then systematically gone from seller to seller.

Another thing that bothers me is that I had the chance of making connections, it was probably possible for me to get a couple of e-mails from one or two of the sellers. Alas, I didn't make the most of that opportunity.

I do not know if this is true or not, but my impression is that the more knowledgeable people are also the most friendly and most willing to part with their knowledge.

So, how would I sum up my experience at my first coin fair? Here's a list for the benefit of people who have never been:

• Read all the advice given in this thread, and learn as much of it as you possibly can and take that with you to the coin fair
• Be systematic, preferably go through ALL the sellers before buying one single coin
• Take your time, force yourself to make the most of the time you have with the coins
• Learn as much as you can from the people there, ask and listen
• Make connections, one good connection with one good knowledgeable seller is very valuable

I bought three coins there, and I will post pictures  of one here. I took the pictures with my mobile phone and I think that better pictures would do my coins more justice, but alas it is what it is. I took pics with and without flash and would like to know which one is better to put in my album.

Thanks in advance,

Patrik

Edit: I should mention that I definitely think it's  worth the time to go, you are likely to enjoy it if you try to make the most of it.

[areich]

Hi Patrik, I think it's natural to feel a little out of place and out of your depth at your first coin show. You're never sure if the coins are genuine, have no idea what reasonable prices are and there are too many people, many of them very rude. I felt similarly the first few times. But now I love coin shows.

As for the photos, the flash picture shows the details but it is not pretty. The one without is better though a little more light would help. Or you can lighten it in an image editing program. Also, holding your phone more leverl with the coin would cause the picture to be sharper, the lower part is a little blurry. But overall the picture isn't bad and it's a nice coin.

[dougsmit]

As for the photos, the flash picture shows the details but it is not pretty. The one without is better though a little more light would help. Or you can lighten it in an image editing program. Also, holding your phone more level with the coin would cause the picture to be sharper, the lower part is a little blurry. But overall the picture isn't bad and it's a nice coin.

I'll agree with areich and tack on your photo with a bit more brightness.  There is nothing to be done about the unsharpness other than reshoot.  Phones are usually not the best cameras but yours seems better than many we see so I'd just suggest playing with the controls and practicing a few hundred times.