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Author Topic: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again  (Read 12557 times)

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Offline Ecgþeow

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IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« on: January 28, 2007, 05:37:31 pm »
I just recieved this email, and have sent a fax.  Hopefully many of you will do the same in order to protect our hobby.

Fellow Coin Collectors,

January 25th, 2007 may well go down in the annals of numismatic history as the
Pearl Harbor of the Cultural Property War. When the U.S. Department of State
posted a notice in the Federal Register that
renewal of the import restrictions on cultural property from Cyprus would be
considered, Peter K. Tompa (Ancient Coin Collectors Guild President) addressed
the following concern in a letter to the Bureau of Educational and Cultural
Affairs (ECA). "It is unclear from the notice whether new import restrictions on
coins will be considered in the  context of this hearing to determine whether
current restrictions on other archaeological and ethnological artifacts will be
extended." Coins had been exempted from restrictions in the initial agreement
five years ago. A reply from the Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State
at ECA stated that "the Department anticipates consideration of extension of the
agreement as it currently exists with respect to the categories of material." In
other words, coins were not added to
the list of restricted items being considered.

In my capacity as ACCG Executive Director, I then sent a letter to the Cultural
Property Advisory Committee stating that since coins were not to be included,
the ACCG would not take a position on the request and would not appear in person
to comment during the public hearing. In other words, a quid pro quo. I was not
advised of any change in
position. On January 26th, the day after the public hearing, ACCG received the
following notice from ECA. "On 25 and 26 January, 2007, the Cultural Property
Advisory Committee met to onsider extending the bilateral agreement between the
Government of the United States and the Government of the Republic of Cyprus.
Shortly before that meeting, Cyprus submitted a request through normal
diplomatic channels to amend the Designated List of its cultural materials for
which importation is already restricted. The proposal is to include in the
Designated List coins minted and found in Cyprus that are more than 250 years
old." This action is a shocking disappointment. It further undermines ACCG
confidence in the Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs that has eroded
over two years of struggling with constant stonewalling and departmental
secrecy. Sandbagging a legitimate nonprofit advocacy group, to circumvent an
effective defense of its position, is a tactic
that sinks to a level that is intolerable. In an effort to diffuse the
inevitable outrage, ECA has reopened the window for comment to run through the
close of business on Monday, February 6. If ever there was cause for comment, it
is now. This
request, if approved, will not only affect ancient coins from Cyprus, but
virtually all Medieval and early modern coins. Worse, restrictions would set an
irreversible precedent. The aggression of cultural property nationalists knows
no limits and there is no room left in the collecting world for complacency.
Every collector simply must take the time to comment. The best method is by Fax
to
202-453-8803. Address your comments to Mr. Jay I. Kislak, Chairman, Cultural
Property Advisory Committee. Please be specific and be polite. The ACCG provides
a free online Fax service for this purpose at http://accg.us If you avail
yourself of that service, a choice of sample letters will be offered or you can
create your own text in any
standard browser. The process is fast, easy and meaningful. Our goal for this
campaign is 1,000 individual comments to CPAC. We will need every single
collector's cooperation. If you can't figure out how to comment or what to say,
send a note to me at director@accg.us for suggestions.

Become an activist, spread the word and encourage all of your friends to
comment. This is not a practice drill.

With best regards and hope for the future of our hobby,

Wayne

Wayne G. Sayles
Executive Director, ACCG
director@accg.us

Offline Numerianus

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2007, 05:48:39 am »
An interesting letter. As a collector I am not happy on restrictions.
On the other hand,  the request of Cyprus government seems to be
completely legitime.  Some sentences  of Mr. Sayles are  highly provocative,
especially, his reference on Pearl Harbor.  He defends interests of a certain  focus-group
against national interest of Cyprus.   

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2007, 07:33:09 am »
I can't see that the request to restrict export of coins merely found on Cyprus is legitimate, since that obviously includes Roman coins which would not even have been minted in Cyprus! (and are anyways certainly generally not scarce or unique enough to qualify as national treature).

It might be appropriate for Cyprus (if they do not already have it) to require an export permit for antiquities so as to be able  to control what does and does not leave (as well as be able to repatriate items that were smuggled out), and one might hope that they would then have the appropriate local expertise to differentiate between a Cypriot treasure of national interest and a commodity Roman coin. Having a blanket restriction that even includes non-Cypriot items such as Roman coins is not the way to go, nor is putting the burden of identification on importing countries rather than assuming it themself where the expertise lies.

As far as ancient coins go as a particular class of antinquities, not only are they mass produced commodities as a quick eBay search will verify, but I don't think that museums are even the most responsible custodians. Of all the major collections cited in RIC, such as London, Paris, Vienna... how many have even published the LRB portion of their collections? Just too common to bother, perhaps? The only major LRB collection that has been published that I'm aware of is the Hunter collection in Glasgow.  Museums collections would also hardly even exist if it were not for private collectors who do the hard work of assembling (and paying for!) collections and then gift them to museums.

Ben

Offline Numerianus

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2007, 08:19:55 am »
Ben,  I do not agree with you.
Every ancient coin, even the most common Roman,  is a piece of art and a witness of early civilisation
(you can find confirmations of this point of view in many threads here). 
Many counties has a control of art trade and some pieces or art cannot leave the country territory.
This was a souverain right of any country.
There is  a point whether it is reasonable or not.  What we learn form the history? It happen that many
countries that were  in turmoil regret now  their lost treasures. The  most obvious example is Elgin's marbres but there are
many others.  The  areas which were the cradle of civilisation is not the reachest part of the world and the income is 10 times less than in developed
countries. The lawmakers in these countries understand quite well that without  legal restrictions the archeological sites will be robbed.   
If they will not take a severe laws against smuggling of antiquities the treasures (ancient coins included) will be drained out.
On the other hand,  financial cituation is improving radically and in a few years collectors in Cyprus or Bulgaria will be able to pay
world prices for objects of their hobby.  Roughly speaking, what is 100$ for a US colector? Nothing, just a dinner in a good resaurant with a bottle
of French wine. But at the moment  it is monthly salary in some parts of the world.  Unfortunately, there still borders and many country protect
where markets, in particular, labor markets. Can a Bulgarian istall freely in the USA? I think not... On the other hand,  it can do this in Europe...   

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2007, 09:07:03 am »
Numerianus, I don't think that we disagree that much... obviously I also agree about the historical interest of ancient coins, or I wouldn't be collecting them, and I also agree that national treasures belong in national museums (as long as they are going to look after them and display them - not let them rot in a basement like in Cairo!).

There are also specifically some coins which I would classify as a national treasure such as the gold Coenwulf coin found last year in England, but I regard it as such because of the rarity. However, in the event that a hoard of 1000 of these were found, then I think that after the hoard had been studied it would be entirely appropriate to let private collectors aquire many of them since the status as items of unique national interest would no longer hold - rarity does make a huge difference.

The Constantinian coins that I collect are for the most part tremendously common, to the extent that one can collect by mint and officina if one wants to - it's ridiculous! I've had as much trouble collecting some of the modern state quarter series from pocket change than I've had aquiring some Roman coins I wanted! I think that the rights and interests of common people /collectors need to be balanced with those of national interest, and scarcity is the major factor that should weigh into this balance. I can't see how anyone can justify that common Roman coins, with a supply/demand balance so lopsided that they sell for $10 on eBay, and are overflowing in the back room trays of museums, should be regarded in the same class as the Elgin marbles or a $500,000 one of a kind gold penny!

Ben

Offline Cleisthenes

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2007, 09:20:36 am »
. . .  As a collector I am not happy on restrictions.
On the other hand,  the request of Cyprus government seems to be
completely legitime.    

Numerianus,

You make a valid point.  Cyprus has its rights and responsibilities.  That said, a completely prohibitive proposal seems unreasonable.  When I wish to purchase a Celtic coin from the U.K., dealers need to apply for an export licence for any coins.  This is a possible option for Cyprus to take, but one which must be negotiated, perhaps, at some time in the future.  

I think Mr. Sayles concern, and it is one which I share, is the precedent a completely prohibitive proposal sets.  The language that you think is provocative in Mr. Sayles' open letter to collectors/dealers is excised in the draft letters available at ACCG (available from his link).  I recently used ACCG's "system," and it took only a few minutes.

Jim

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Nullum Gratuitum Prandium!
"Flamma fumo est proxima!"--Plautus
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4to2CentBCphilia

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2007, 04:31:25 pm »
From CNG via e-mail


Received from Peter Tompa:

Dear Fellow Collector of Ancient or Foreign Coins:
 
The US Cultural Property Advisory Committee of the State Department advises the
President on the imposition of import restrictions on cultural artifacts.  Since
1998, the coin collecting community has been able to argue successfully against
the imposition of import restrictions on coins.  Now, after being assured that
coins would "not be on the table" with respect to the renewal of current import
restrictions on a wide variety of cultural goods of potential Cypriot origin, we
have learned that Cyprus has made a last minute request to add coins older than
250 years to the current restrictions.  This request is significant.  If
granted, it will make it very difficult, if not impossible, to import any coin
on the designated list, including many Greek, Roman, Medieval or Early Modern coins of a type that circulated in Cyprus.  Even worse, it would be an adverse
precedent that could easily be repeated for other Greek, Roman, Medieval or
Early Modern coins known to have circulated elsewhere.  That would make for a
fundamental change in the coin trade -- one that could very well  make shows
like the New York International and participation in foreign auctions a thing of
the past.  
 
Due to complaints from IAPN and PNG, the major numismatic trade associations,
CPAC has reopened the record for additional comment on this issue-- but only for
a very limited time.  

Comments must be received no later than 5 PM on Monday, 6 February 2007. Please
send all comments by e-mail or fax only to:

Cultural Property Advisory Committee
Cultural Heritage Center
US Department of State
E-mail: culprop@state.gov
Fax: (202) 453-8803

For more information, see the CPAC web site at:
http://exchanges.state.gov/culprop/whatsnew.html

If you do not have access to a fax machine, please consider using the ACCG "Fax Wizard" which can be found at [BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN] The
fax wizard should also provide you with a sample letter.


Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2007, 05:24:12 pm »
I do think there's two sides to this one, but a blanket ban on exports is really both unsustainable and unjustifiable. All it does is encourage smuggling and uncontrolled digging, while it's been shown here in the UK that it's possible for diggers and archaeologists to work together for the good of both parties. My concern about the ACCG approach is that it makes no mention of this, and appears to oppose one extreme with the other. Surely it would be better to talk to governments and try to persuade them to take a more positive approach!
Robert Brenchley

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Offline awl

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2007, 10:43:35 pm »
 :o

I am going to start my letter immediately! Does Cyprus not understand the importance of ancient coins to collectors?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? and how can they be certain it is from Cyprus

Offline Howard Cole

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2007, 12:04:30 am »
To protect coin collecting you don't need to write a letter.  The ACCG has set up an internet fax to send a message supporting coin collecting.  The URL is the following.
http://accg.us

Now, send you fax now if you haven't already!!! Save our hobby!

4to2CentBCphilia

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2007, 07:33:31 am »
To protect coin collecting you don't need to write a letter.  The ACCG has set up an internet fax to send a message supporting coin collecting.  The URL is the following.
http://accg.us

Now, send you fax now if you haven't already!!! Save our hobby!

I am surprised this thread has only been read 160 times.

Most Folks here are dancing to the band and ignoring the sound of the claxon.

Offline jimwho523

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2007, 09:43:51 am »
I just sent my fax, refering to the way some of us use coins to help school children learn about ancient cultures, as well as the joys of collecting. Please pass this message on to anyone who has gotten a thrill from our hobby, including teachers, school children, family, etc...

Jim
Facilis descensus Averno; sed ad auras evadere est labor! (The Road to hell is a easy one, it is the journey back that is diffulcult!)

Offline Numerianus

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2007, 10:22:19 am »
I just sent my fax, refering to the way some of us use coins to help school children learn about ancient cultures, as well as the joys of collecting. Please pass this message on to anyone who has gotten a thrill from our hobby, including teachers, school children, family, etc...
Jim

Jim, I am sorry but your position seems to be uncompatible with the mission of educators.
What we have as a fact? A government of a country asks the lawmakers of another country to
collaborate to breakdown an illegal practice of smuggling artifacts (ancient coins included).
The demand comes not from a focus group but from a governumental agency.   You know quite well
that  all developed European countries have a whole spectrum of legislation for ``treasure hunters".
A relatively high income, civility and efficient control make not very attractive illegal digging and selling
artifacts in UK, Germany, France etc. The collectors accept this without complaints.
With countries like Cyprus the cituation is quite different. The low living standards  and high prices of artifacts
in developed counties make robbery of archeological sites quite attractive. Recall the story with Julia Paula aureus
extracted from the teeth by a tomb robber... 
This is a great problem in  Middle East and Balkan countries...
 
So, a demand to the country which is the main exporter of ancient artifacts to put a legal barrier to  stop such a practice is quite reasonable.
Why you want to persuade lawmakers to decline the demand? 
To be honest,  it is not a danger to the hobby  but to a few dealers...  It would be wiser to suggest a mechanism which give dealers and
collectors a chance to buy  artifacts which are  examined and described according to local regulations and import them  legally.

I know that my point of view is not welcome by dealers but I hope  that some collectors may share  it.   
 

vic9128

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2007, 10:33:00 am »
I am surprised this thread has only been read 160 times.

Most Folks here are dancing to the band and ignoring the sound of the claxon.

I don't think anyone here is "dancing to the band" or ignoring claxons. There have been quite a lot of views for this post. You must remember how many actual regular board members there are. Maybe 10-20 regular members and another 20 or so that pop in frequently...so that means this is an active post. You must also remember that many of our board members are not U.S. citizens and may not be very concerned with participating  in a discussion about faxes that they can't send (even though this could eventually affect them). Plus many people may just view the list of recent topics (I do frequently) without actually going into the topic, which means the post count will not be affected!

Offline jimwho523

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2007, 10:54:22 am »
Numerianus,

I am not objecting to controls on the importation of illegally obtained artifacts, but to "The proposal is to include in the Designated List coins minted and found in Cyprus that are more than 250 years old."

Are all coins minted in Cyprus that are over 250 years old "ancient artifacts"? What about coins that that are over 250 years old and were minted in cyprus, and were used in commerce, that are now found elsewhere? What about coins not minted in Cyprus, but that at one time or another may have been found in Cyprus? It seems to me that any coin minted up to the year 1750 could be included in this ban on importation if there is any chance that a single coin of that type may have circulated, or at one time been "found" in Cyprus

It is the broad language that can be used to shut down the hobby of private coin collectors by overzealous regulators and governments that I object too.

 
Facilis descensus Averno; sed ad auras evadere est labor! (The Road to hell is a easy one, it is the journey back that is diffulcult!)

4to2CentBCphilia

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2007, 11:16:37 am »
It is the broad language that can be used to shut down the hobby of private coin collectors by overzealous regulators and governments that I object too.
 

This too is my concern. I don't know if this measure is as dangerous as it sounds, but I do know that the timeline given to digest and respond is unreasonable.

I put this on another board.



I believe that in a siuation like this, the best that can be hoped for is an extension until the measure can be properly addressed.

To that end, I added this to my vcoins e-fax.



While well intentioned, I believe the desired results will not be achieved through this agreement. In addition I believe there are better ways to accomplish the preservation of a nations cultural heritage. The current measure does not appear to have been adequately thought through and I humbly advise that more time be given to the collecting community to present their ideas. Coin collecting is a time held tradition spanning centuries, surely a 6 month extension is a reasonable request.



Offline Numerianus

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2007, 12:30:25 pm »
The demand to include  coins in the list is recurrent: it appears regularly and it is not surprise that it will be
discussed  again. Moreover, the problem became more serious because of metal detectors (by the way, because of the damage
to archeological sites it use in many countries is restricted and even prohibited). As for the definitions and consistency of the regulations
to the aim there are lawyers to do the job. Moreover, there are precedents and examples how one can proceed (it seems, Italy  is one of the developed countries which take care about its historical heritage and there are no reasons why the relations with Cyprus should be different).   

Offline Ecgþeow

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2007, 02:16:11 pm »
Italy  is one of the developed countries which take care about its historical heritage and there are no reasons why the relations with Cyprus should be different 

Banning all trade in coins or anything related whatsoever to the ancient world is one way of protecting your cultural heritage, but it is not the only way, and I would say it is not the best way either.  England, for example has a very good law that allows both for the preservation and documentation of artifacts, as well as a thriving and non-prohibited trade in coins; the best of both worlds.  If Cyprus were to follow England's remarkably successful law rather than Italy's, the whole issue would be sorted out and both sides would be happy.

Offline Ecgþeow

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2007, 05:23:37 pm »
The Archaeological Institute of America has thrown its weight into the discussion, and has recommended to the Cultural Property Advisory Committee that coins from Cyprus be banned, and has asked all members to write a letter to CPAC to this effect. 
http://www.archaeological.org/webinfo.php?page=10301
We need, now more than ever, as many letters as possible in support of our hobby, so if you haven't already, please follow the link below and send a fax through the ACCG site.

http://accg.us

~Zach

Offline Howard Cole

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2007, 05:30:58 pm »
Banning all trade in coins does not protect cultural heritage.  Culture is what the people do and believe.  Its heritage is the customs, beliefs, views, and prejudices of the people (i.e. what they do).  Culture has very little to do with ancient coins or other artifacts.  The whole cultural heritage thing is a red herring (something to confuse the real issue.)

If you ban the trade in coins, archaeological sites will still be damaged for the gold and silver, or what ever.  You can always melt gold and silver down and sell it.

A more reasonable way to handle found artifacts is the way England does it.  You have to report it.  If the government or a museum want it, they have to pay the amount determined at an inquest.  If not, it is allowed to be sold.  You have the best of both worlds.  Archaeological finds are reported and the person that does the reporting gets rewarded and not punished.  Punishment really does not work, rewards do.

Offline DruMAX

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2007, 05:45:57 pm »
To protect coin collecting you don't need to write a letter.  The ACCG has set up an internet fax to send a message supporting coin collecting.  The URL is the following.
http://accg.us

Now, send you fax now if you haven't already!!! Save our hobby!

done...THANKS!!

Offline awl

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2007, 08:38:51 pm »
I sent mine.

I find it ironic that they want to "preserve the culture," while they do not want to spread the culture around the world to collectors (who treat their coins with care and respect)

Does anyone know how close they are to 1000?

basemetal

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2007, 09:34:30 pm »
In addition,  one unspoken danger lies in the nature of governments.   First ban exports, then ban your own citizens from "finding" or "digging".  It's a concept that sounds so grand on paper.  Protect our national heritage.  Fine.  But then fail to provide a system similar to the British one where one can dig and find ancient coins then be required to submit them to government scrutiny so as to determine their actual "value" as national heritage. 
If said government finds "we already have 8,000 Valens coins in drawers awaiting attribution and or display, the private citizen can keep said coin(s) for whatever purpose"
If said coin or find is a national treasure, the government will pay a fair market price for the item to the finder and/or landowner.
Governments are rarely this wise.
It's much easier to ban all digging or metal detecting, or squating down and scratching the dirt and finding an ancient coin and make it a crime as opposed to reporting same, thus establishing a thriving black market, or letting artifacts including coins which have a finite life in the soil degrade to the point of dissapearing.
It's always amazing to me when many governments, museums, archeoligists, and others would prefer letting ancient artifacts dissapear as opposed to utilizing an interested, law-abiding, citizenry to find sites that the "professionals" have neither the time or resources to find and catalouge.
I realize that the leglislation is not exactly about this, but it will become so, if not in the works already.

Offline awl

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2007, 09:44:00 pm »
The line needs to be drawn for where the collectors and the government get the coins. I strongly agree with Basemetal, I don't see how a government can see 100 culls as a national treasure. A rare one of a kind aureus, certainly. Would these new laws even put the coins into a museum for collectors to see, if the law is passed or will they lock it up in some government building to be forgotten. I say that the coins should be given to collectors who would preserve and cherish them.

basemetal

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Re: IMPORTANT: Coin collecting in danger yet again
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2007, 10:13:31 pm »
One final addition:
Anytime a government passes laws "banning" a certain activity, it almost inevitably creates or encourages a non-legal activity in that area.  Hey, look at prohibition in the US in the 20's.  It wasn't necessiarily that alcohol was so desired that people "had" to have it, it was just that with alcohol being easy to produce, and desired, that the laws were scoffed at.
Ancient coin are in the ground to be found. Laws will not stop people from finding and selling them.
Like so many things, the strictly law abiding will abide, and the not-so-law abding will see a potential for greater profit. The bottom line will be, down the road,
"Hey, got a Cypriot coin here, hard to get, it'll cost ya.......dollars or whatever".
The same, not ignorance, but the same mindset that says:
"A roman coin?! That can't be real!  We've gotta save the real ones  for our country.  There aren't many of them and they are so rare! To have people sell them would be theft of our "national heritage". 
Relax Mr. Government official.  I've got 300 ancient coins that you are welcome to. Total value: $75 dollars in your money tops.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity