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Author Topic: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'  (Read 746 times)

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Offline PtolemAE

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Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« on: February 19, 2023, 04:57:57 pm »
The coin pictured here appears to be a countermarked example of Calciati I-29, an Akragas 'hemilitron' ca 425-406BC. The original coin had a crab with pellets above and crawfish below. I was able to make it out from the attached pics - one rotated to show the crab legs and other bits of the original. Maybe someone here has the actual Calciati reference and/or other references to this type and related ones from about the same time.

It would also be nice to learn when and wherefore the countermark was added. The countermark is so much more fresh than the underlying coin that maybe it was added even a century or more after the coin was originally struck. The reverse is essentially worn smooth, with devices barely visible - an eagle holding a snake.

Weight of this coin is 16.9 gm, 29mm diameter.

Thank you scholars and Sicily experts.

PtolemAE

Offline Curtis JJ

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2023, 09:00:48 pm »
I've got one of these too -- your Herakles is nicer looking, though! I find it interesting that these Akragas countermarks seemed to come in multiple different sizes (I think of yours as the large type, mine as medium, and there are small ones). I wonder if there was any difference in meaning?

Mine is also heavily worn. The obverse is probably totally blank (though a bit encrusted). I'd bet some of that wear came after the countermark, but that the countermark protected the reverse/crab side by deforming/cupping the flan.

The host coin was struck ca. end of the 5th century BCE, I think. I wouldn't be surprised if the Herakles was a couple hundred years later. I don't remember the references off the top of my head, but I recall reading that Republican AE Asses (the 2nd cent BCE Janus/Prow ones) circulated for up to centuries, and then the really worn out ones could actually be exported en masse to regions with shortages of bronze coinage.

So I wouldn't be at all shocked if these were circulating all the way to the Roman periods in Sicily (post-241 BCE). Hopefully someone will know, since I've wondered.

Unfortunately Greek countermarks are not nearly as well studied as Roman Provincial ones, so there's no single reference like Howgego is for Roman Provincial countermarks.
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Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2023, 12:56:03 am »
Hi folks,

I have an Akragas coin with a crab and crayfish countermark (second coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/gs_sicl_akragas_pt02.htm

That was one of the first ancient coins I ever purchased. I bought it way back in circa 1999.

Nick Molinari has the Calciati reference book. I have been trying to get a copy of that book for more than 20 years now, but I can't get one at a reasonable price. They are so expensive.

I have all 5 SNG ANS Italy/Sicily volumes. But those books don't contain much information. In many cases, they don't even state the years of issue. I also have the SNG Cop Italy/Sicily volume. But that book also lacks the sort of information PAE is looking for.

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2023, 01:17:51 am »
Hi PAE,

I looked in my reference books.

Your coin is SNG ANS 1065-1077 and SNG Cop. 88.

In SNG Cop., the year of issue is "Before 406 BC". There is no mention of when the countermark was applied.

Meepzorp

Offline Altamura

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2023, 04:39:24 am »
In Ulla Westermark, "The Coinage of Akragas c. 510–406 BC", Uppsala 2018, you find on page 165 f. some remarks on these countermarks:
https://uu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1189867/FULLTEXT03.pdf#page=165&zoom=auto,-236,697

Perhaps that helps  :) .

Regards

Altamura

Offline Curtis JJ

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2023, 01:25:46 pm »
Very helpful, thank you Altamura! It sounds like they could've been countermarked pretty shortly after being struck -- possibly as early as "the time of Punic domination 405–392," but definitely (according to hoard evidence) by the time of Dionysios I in Syracuse (405-367 BCE).
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Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2023, 02:20:34 pm »
Quote from: Meepzorp on February 20, 2023, 12:56:03 am
Hi folks,

I have an Akragas coin with a crab and crayfish countermark (second coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/gs_sicl_akragas_pt02.htm

That was one of the first ancient coins I ever purchased. I bought it way back in circa 1999.

Nick Molinari has the Calciati reference book. I have been trying to get a copy of that book for more than 20 years now, but I can't get one at a reasonable price. They are so expensive.

I have all 5 SNG ANS Italy/Sicily volumes. But those books don't contain much information. In many cases, they don't even state the years of issue. I also have the SNG Cop Italy/Sicily volume. But that book also lacks the sort of information PAE is looking for.

Meepzorp

Thank you. I would not have figured the crab/conch on the coin shown as a countermark, looks rather the actual strike which takes up pretty much the whole flan surface, albeit a little off-center. But if a countermark were as large as the flan, how would anyone know it's a countermark? Maybe I missed something here...

PtolemAE

Offline PtolemAE

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2023, 02:22:55 pm »
Quote from: Curtis JJ on February 19, 2023, 09:00:48 pm
I've got one of these too -- your Herakles is nicer looking, though! I find it interesting that these Akragas countermarks seemed to come in multiple different sizes (I think of yours as the large type, mine as medium, and there are small ones). I wonder if there was any difference in meaning?

Mine is also heavily worn. The obverse is probably totally blank (though a bit encrusted). I'd bet some of that wear came after the countermark, but that the countermark protected the reverse/crab side by deforming/cupping the flan.

The host coin was struck ca. end of the 5th century BCE, I think. I wouldn't be surprised if the Herakles was a couple hundred years later. I don't remember the references off the top of my head, but I recall reading that Republican AE Asses (the 2nd cent BCE Janus/Prow ones) circulated for up to centuries, and then the really worn out ones could actually be exported en masse to regions with shortages of bronze coinage.

So I wouldn't be at all shocked if these were circulating all the way to the Roman periods in Sicily (post-241 BCE). Hopefully someone will know, since I've wondered.

Unfortunately Greek countermarks are not nearly as well studied as Roman Provincial ones, so there's no single reference like Howgego is for Roman Provincial countermarks.

Thank you, Curtis. Yours looks to show a stronger original crab undertype and weak Heracles countermark, the opposite of mine :) It took me a while to make out the crab orientation on mine.

PtolemAE

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2023, 02:25:17 pm »
Quote from: Meepzorp on February 20, 2023, 01:17:51 am
Hi PAE,

I looked in my reference books.

Your coin is SNG ANS 1065-1077 and SNG Cop. 88.

In SNG Cop., the year of issue is "Before 406 BC". There is no mention of when the countermark was applied.

Meepzorp

Thank you very much for the SNG ANS numbers. Is it possible to also give the volume #? Presumably it's one of the many Sicily volumes but I don't know which one includes the Akragas issues from this time period. I only have Volume III, which is mostly Syracuse.

PtolemAE

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2023, 02:27:01 pm »
Quote from: Curtis JJ on February 20, 2023, 01:25:46 pm
Very helpful, thank you Altamura! It sounds like they could've been countermarked pretty shortly after being struck -- possibly as early as "the time of Punic domination 405–392," but definitely (according to hoard evidence) by the time of Dionysios I in Syracuse (405-367 BCE).

The story behind a 'fast' countermarking will make for an interesting read.

PtolemAE

Offline Curtis JJ

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2023, 03:37:47 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on February 21, 2023, 02:27:01 pm
The story behind a 'fast' countermarking will make for an interesting read.
PtolemAE

There are some types out there that are even faster. This Britannicus from Caesarea (Cappadocia) is virtually always found with the same Mt. Argaios / KΛ.Θ. countermark (Howgego 424). (All of the examples illustrated on RPC Online have it: https://rpc.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/coins/1/3656.)

Countermarks are great because of their backstories. One theory is that these ones were all countermarked before ever leaving mint.

It would be more exciting if it was because Britannicus died right after the coins were struck, but they are dated to Year 8 (for Claudius, that's 48 CE), about 7 years before Britannicus died. The countermark reads KΛ.Θ. (above Mt. Argaios). The Theta (Θ) is presumably for Year 9 of Claudius (but it was also associated with death...).

Howgego writes: "It is possible that they were not put into circulation until AD 49 and were countermarked accordingly."

I seem to recall having seen one specimen without the countermark, at most, but can't remember where.
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Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2023, 06:36:25 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on February 21, 2023, 02:20:34 pm
Quote from: Meepzorp on February 20, 2023, 12:56:03 am
Hi folks,

I have an Akragas coin with a crab and crayfish countermark (second coin):

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/meepzorp/gs_sicl_akragas_pt02.htm

That was one of the first ancient coins I ever purchased. I bought it way back in circa 1999.

Nick Molinari has the Calciati reference book. I have been trying to get a copy of that book for more than 20 years now, but I can't get one at a reasonable price. They are so expensive.

I have all 5 SNG ANS Italy/Sicily volumes. But those books don't contain much information. In many cases, they don't even state the years of issue. I also have the SNG Cop Italy/Sicily volume. But that book also lacks the sort of information PAE is looking for.

Meepzorp

Thank you. I would not have figured the crab/conch on the coin shown as a countermark, looks rather the actual strike which takes up pretty much the whole flan surface, albeit a little off-center. But if a countermark were as large as the flan, how would anyone know it's a countermark? Maybe I missed something here...

PtolemAE

Hi PAE,

I think you are looking at the wrong coin. You are probably looking at the first coin in that page. In my initial post, I wrote "(second coin)".

Meepzorp

Offline Meepzorp

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2023, 06:41:43 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on February 21, 2023, 02:25:17 pm
Quote from: Meepzorp on February 20, 2023, 01:17:51 am
Hi PAE,

I looked in my reference books.

Your coin is SNG ANS 1065-1077 and SNG Cop. 88.

In SNG Cop., the year of issue is "Before 406 BC". There is no mention of when the countermark was applied.

Meepzorp

Thank you very much for the SNG ANS numbers. Is it possible to also give the volume #? Presumably it's one of the many Sicily volumes but I don't know which one includes the Akragas issues from this time period. I only have Volume III, which is mostly Syracuse.

PtolemAE

Hi PAE,

My SNG ANS numbers are from volume #3. It is the third Italy/Sicily volume. However, it is the first Sicily volume. Volume #3 starts with mainland Italy (Part 3) and ends with Sicily (Part 1).

When you wrote that you have volume III, I think you are referring to the third Sicily volume, which is actually SNG ANS volume #5 (Sicily Part 3).

Meepzorp

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2023, 03:45:38 pm »
Quote from: Meepzorp on February 21, 2023, 06:41:43 pm
Quote from: PtolemAE on February 21, 2023, 02:25:17 pm
Quote from: Meepzorp on February 20, 2023, 01:17:51 am
Hi PAE,

I looked in my reference books.

Your coin is SNG ANS 1065-1077 and SNG Cop. 88.

In SNG Cop., the year of issue is "Before 406 BC". There is no mention of when the countermark was applied.

Meepzorp

Thank you very much for the SNG ANS numbers. Is it possible to also give the volume #? Presumably it's one of the many Sicily volumes but I don't know which one includes the Akragas issues from this time period. I only have Volume III, which is mostly Syracuse.

PtolemAE

Hi PAE,

My SNG ANS numbers are from volume #3. It is the third Italy/Sicily volume. However, it is the first Sicily volume. Volume #3 starts with mainland Italy (Part 3) and ends with Sicily (Part 1).

When you wrote that you have volume III, I think you are referring to the third Sicily volume, which is actually SNG ANS volume #5 (Sicily Part 3).

Meepzorp

Thank you. That must be it. My volume includes Syracuse.

PtolemAE

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2023, 12:19:04 pm »
Quote from: Curtis JJ on February 20, 2023, 01:25:46 pm
Very helpful, thank you Altamura! It sounds like they could've been countermarked pretty shortly after being struck -- possibly as early as "the time of Punic domination 405–392," but definitely (according to hoard evidence) by the time of Dionysios I in Syracuse (405-367 BCE).

A little surprising, in that case, that some of the countermarks appear so much less worn than the rest of the coins' surfaces. One wonders how long these circulated. The amount of ordinary surface wear is often remarkable, even for ancient coins.
PtolemAE

Offline Curtis JJ

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2023, 12:49:57 pm »
PtolemAE, it's an interesting topic. My assumption has always been that countermarks would wear much more slowly than the original surfaces of the "host coin."

They're usually well protected (or at least better protected) inside a compact incuse square or circle, while the "surface-surfaces" remain very exposed. (Like the difference between obverse and reverse rates of wear due to the slight cupping that protects the reverse on many coin types...but magnified.) I'm sure there are variables that influence the size of the protective effect (e.g., depth and diameter of a countermark, whether it's on the obverse/convex or reverse/concave side, etc.).

I don't know if anyone has published on this, but I'd be interested if so (I imagine someone has, I mean I just don't know where!).
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Offline Altamura

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2023, 01:47:13 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on February 25, 2023, 12:19:04 pm
... some of the countermarks appear so much less worn than the rest of the coins' surfaces. One wonders how long these circulated. ...
A different view on the dating of these countermarks can be found in "Morgantina Studies, Volume II: The Coins", Princeton 1989, beginning on page 136, note 74, 75:
https://books.google.de/books?id=HBaeDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA137&ots=kg_Gmx1mX_&dq=akragas%20countermark%20hammered&hl=de&pg=PA136#v=onepage&q=akragas%20countermark%20hammered&f=false
(I hope that Google does not do some geoblocking here, otherwise you have to try a proxy  :-\, and that Forvm software does not kill the link, otherwiese you have to copy and paste it).
Here the countermarking is dated much later sounding more reasonable.

Regards

Altamura

Offline Curtis JJ

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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2023, 03:51:38 pm »
Altamura: Fantastic info, thanks much! I am indeed able to see those pages (USA). It's great that all the other references are mentioned. Very useful  ;D
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Re: Akragas countermarked 'hemilitron'
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2023, 05:23:44 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on February 25, 2023, 12:19:04 pm
... some of the countermarks appear so much less worn than the rest of the coins' surfaces. One wonders how long these circulated. ...
A different view on the dating of these countermarks can be found in "Morgantina Studies, Volume II: The Coins", Princeton 1989, beginning on page 136, note 74, 75:
https://books.google.de/books?id=HBaeDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA137&ots=kg_Gmx1mX_&dq=akragas%20countermark%20hammered&hl=de&pg=PA136#v=onepage&q=akragas%20countermark%20hammered&f=false
(I hope that Google does not do some geoblocking here, otherwise you have to try a proxy  :-\, and that Forvm software does not kill the link, otherwiese you have to copy and paste it).
Here the countermarking is dated much later sounding more reasonable.

Regards

Altamura

Even if countermarks are 'protected' to some degree, these are really big countermarks and it stands to reason that the raised design element inside the countermark is pretty exposed. The difference in wear in countermark design elements vs. the rest of the coin speaks against the hypothesis that countermarking took place very near the time of minting.

Interesting to read Buttrey's commentary on this topic on p. 136, but it continues to the next page which is blocked by the provider. Hope to read the rest of it.

PtolemAE


 

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