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Author Topic: Constantinvs Avg Thessalonica solidus fakes Transfer dies problems  (Read 625 times)

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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2022, 08:37:32 am »
Din,
Let's focus on coins C-F for now. The discussion of a potentially reworked die (and my die comparison video above) was about the A-B vs C-F dies.

Here are three considerations that make me think D & E may be from the same transfer die.

1) The flow lines appear to be identical. Is that more likely to occur because:
a) These flow lines are present on a transfer die, transmitted to the coins via pressed production, or
b) There are no flow lines on the die, and despite the variation of hand striking they happened to just come out the same ?

2) The missing regions of pearl border appear the same on both coins.

3)
a) All of C-E are derived from the same (obv, rev) die pair, and this rev die was also used to produce the known fake F.
b) A, B are both from the same (but different from C-E) die pair
c) The Hirsch coin, and the more recent sale, shown above, are again from the same pair of dies, different again from either of the above pairs.
How likely is it that we only ever see these three pairs used together, and not in combination (say, Hirsch obv with E rev, or E obv with Hirsh rev)? Maybe such pairings exist, but these posted coins were not cherry picked.. they are the only officina E ones I've been able to easily find.

Have we seen the entire population of coins struck from these C-E dies? Seems unlikely. We don't need to micro analyze just these coins and consider which is the mother of the other. Maybe they were all produced from the same dies in various stages of wear, with the shield & exergual like damage on C & D just reflecting the late stage condition of this reverse die, and not that a transfer die was taken directly from D to produce C.

Finally, the style of this C-E obverse die is only similar to that of A-B (which by association seems suspect). The bust styles from all officinas, as well as the HIrsch officina E die, are much more homogenous and normal looking, as well as providing style continuity into the following jewelled-diadem bust type (see my post near top of this thread). The C-E obverse die (and, to an only slightly lesser extent, also the A-B obverse die) is a stylistic outlier, and possibly modern.


Offline Din X

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2022, 08:58:18 am »
"1) The flow lines appear to be identical. Is that more likely to occur because:"

It is normal that the flow lines are identical on coins from the same die state because it must be like this, the flow lines are from metal flow and will erode with usage time into the dies !
Look at authentic coins from same dies and from about the same die state and you will notice that they have pretty much identical flow lines.
Search of authentic coins, from excavations, museum collections and if they were minted at same die state they will have pretty much identical flow lines because these flow lines already eroded from usage in the dies.

We have flow lines :

1. that eroded  with usage time into the dies and they should be present on all coins minted with these dies at this or a later die state.
2. possible but very unlikely some new flow lines from the minting process (most likely very weak and very hard to see)
 



Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Constantinvs Avg Thessalonica solidus fakes Transfer dies problems
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2022, 10:25:50 am »
Yes, I understand that metal will flow where there is pressure build up and channels for it to flow ... a function of die state, but if you believe D & E are both genuine then we're talking about hand struck coins, and I'd have thought any difference in pressure distribution due to any strike difference would also have an effect on flow lines (e.g. on opposite side of coin if strike pressure was lopsided).

I also think we need to look at the totality of the evidence if we're assessing probability of fake as far as D & E go. How do you explain the same missing regions of pearl border on both coins? Are you not concerned about the three die pairs with no cross-pair usage? Are you not concerned about the stylistic bust differences?

It's one thing if a single piece of evidence is, by itself, 100% proof of something (e.g. coin F's use of dies from two different mints!), but if we're only talking probabilities then you have to combine them. It's a bit like the 50% odds of a head if you toss a coin once vs the odds of tossing 3 or 4 heads in a row.

It would be interesting to see some more officina E coins, if any can be found, to see if that changes or reinforces anything.

Online Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Constantinvs Avg Thessalonica solidus fakes Transfer dies problems
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2022, 12:11:38 pm »
It would be interesting to see some more officina E coins, if any can be found, to see if that changes or reinforces anything.

Few more. Kunker 174 = Hess Divo 314 but different picture can be useful.

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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Constantinvs Avg Thessalonica solidus fakes Transfer dies problems
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2022, 10:31:03 am »
Thanks, Lech.

So, we have an additional die pair there from Tauler & Fau, and additional examples of two other pairs. At least, I think these Triton and Kunker specimens are same obv die (minimally same engraver) despite these noted differences. I'm not sure what's going on at the back of the head or the ear (can't imagine it being engraved like that) of the Triton coin; the nose difference is the only thing that makes me question if they are same or not.

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Constantinvs Avg Thessalonica solidus fakes Transfer dies problems
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2022, 10:41:46 am »
So here's all the die pairings that we've recorded so far.

It's notable that none of the reverse dies are used with more than a single obverse, and obverse die O1 is only one to be paired with two reverse dies (R1 & R2).

None of the O3 or O4 specimens (all from major auction houses) were sold with any provenance.

The last two O2 specimens (one appearing to be a fake copy of the other) are both provenanced to different sales in 1985. The first O2 specimen, with better preserved hair, was sold without provenance.

I've got to say that if I was in the market for one of these, I'd be looking for a specimen using obverse O1 ...


Online Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Constantinvs Avg Thessalonica solidus fakes Transfer dies problems
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2022, 10:49:25 am »
from Tauler & Fau,

Which seems somehow weird to me. Too smooth, too clean...

I think these Triton and Kunker specimens are same obv die (minimally same engraver)

Probably the same obverse die but these small differences are annoying, e.g. on Kunker specimen the wreat-tie seems to be a little bit closer to the neck. But it could be only the optical effect because of different angle, different light nd so on.
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Online Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Constantinvs Avg Thessalonica solidus fakes Transfer dies problems
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2022, 10:55:49 am »
Excellent analysis. Thanks, Ben.

I've got to say that if I was in the market for one of these, I'd be looking for a specimen using obverse O1 ...

Yes, it is definitely the safest choice.
Lech Stępniewski
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