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Author Topic: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?  (Read 5577 times)

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Thi Nguyen

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Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« on: June 25, 2006, 12:02:30 pm »
To elaborate, I have observed that Antoninus Pius coin portraits tend to have a high quality of artistic detail, whereas Marcus Aurelius and Lucius Verus coins usually look 'artificial', capturing a few significant facial features but otherwise lacking personality.  Hadrian's portraits seem fairly consistent, meaning that I could recognize his profile even on a very worn coin...

basemetal

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2006, 09:26:56 pm »
Ty N. :
I'm a comparative newbie to ancient coins (about 1 year now) but Antoninus Pius is my favorite emperor to collect.  It may be you,  Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelieus and Commodus that are causing the confusion.  No denigration intended, I assure you.
Antoninus Pius has a distinctive look that makes him quite identifiable. In fact the closest emperor to him in appearance is perhaps Aelius who looks even more like Hadrian.  However, provincial coins sometimes take great "liberty" with his appearance as with all provincial coins of roman emperors
But Antoninus Pius is generally quite identifiable because his hair, beard and sharp facial features are almost always the same (experts chime in  here with vast differences).
Marcus Aurelieus on the other hand, handed down his features to his son Commodus. At times their coins, especially provincial are difficult to tell apart to the non-expert. Of which I am one.   
Actually I'd say Antoninus Pius's coins are even more uniform in general, which may make them easier to identify.  Also Marcus Aurelieus coins range from when he was a youth to adulthood. As do the coins of Commodus
Antoninus Pius was "chosen" by Hadrian  to be the guardian/caretaker of the empire until Commodus and Lucius Verus came of age.  He was already an adult when coins of him were struck.
Also bear in mind that Marcus Aurelieus  considered himself not so much a warrior emperor as a philosipher emperor. The long beard, and upwards look on many of his coins reflect this even though ironically, he spent most of his time fighting wars.
Also, Marcus Aurelieus and Commodus both appararently had slightly bulging eyes and long faces. Those features were faithfully reproduced on many of their coins, giving both of them a "uniform" look.
Finally having posted the question you are now made to suffer my penchant for comparing images of the ancient roman emperors with contemporary figures. See the attachment below.
Ever hear of the folk singer Gordon Lightfoot? A musical philosipher of sorts himself.

Offline slokind

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2006, 02:41:31 am »
I found out that my girl students called Antoninus P. the 'handsome emperor'.  Since he assiduously maintained the same image from late middle age into old age, he probably agreed with them.  And any opera singer would envy those luxurious waves of his.  Goodness, those COS I Hadrians suggest that he would have like to look like Gordon LightfootPat L.

Offline Rupert

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2006, 06:06:06 pm »
This is an interesting theory. I too have noticed that really good portrait denarii of M. Aurelius are hard to get and expensive, which is why I still don't have one. I know I should change that.
But I think that "official" portrait busts were made after the accession of a new emperor and distributed through the empire; and certainly one of them would have stood in the carving room of the mint. Good old times all right, but I can't imagine that a Roman emperor had the time to pose for the die engravers - not even Antoninus Pius.

Rupert
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Offline DruMAX

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2006, 07:32:32 pm »
I find Marcus Aurelius coins and busts to be very distinctive as well as commodus...

This has always been one of my favorite busts:



I think it not only captures his appearance but his pompous self aggrandizement.

But I am a huge fan of Busts and portraits are the main reason why I collect...

a few more nice examples I have collected, to see their portrait you can gather a lot about the times and the person:


Opulent and artistic and a bit dreamy


same but much more stern




Scared for his life...


I took this one myself at the louvre


basemetal

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2006, 10:26:51 pm »
It is said that Lucius Verus was considered the most handsome of emperors by his comtemporary romans.   He even got away with gold dusting (real gold) his beard and hair.  I've always found this inconsistent with the fact that he may have died of tuberculosis.  Most advanced victims are gaunt, pale and thin.
Many of his portraits show him with a trademark "flattening" or pasting down of his beard around his lips and upper chin, which to moderns would have given him a "Blackbeard the Pirate" look.

basemetal

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2006, 10:34:03 pm »
Lucius Verus also according to the Historia Agusta (please I know unreliable)
came up with the idea of a bed with in effect a netting all around it and partly filled with rose petals.

"Hi, I'm Lucius Verus. Want to come back to my palace and look at my collection of gold, slaves, statues, and fine food?  Oh yes, I have a most unusual bed" ;)

Offline Tiathena

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2006, 11:35:40 pm »
 
    I’ve wondered for quite some time whether I’m the only girl who consistently finds many of Caracalla’s coin portraits handsome…
 
  *shrugging shoulders*   ..I know, but what can I say?
 
  Not quite so much this …
 

 
   ..But this Caracalla, yes …


 
 
   My apology Ty. N., this is a digression from your initiating question, I know.  I just couldn’t resist posing this question generally here for all the ripeness of the opportunity.
 

   Best,
   Tia
 
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Offline DruMAX

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2006, 11:43:21 pm »
He always seems like he is mad  :)

Offline Tiathena

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2006, 12:05:10 am »
 
    “He always seems like he is mad :)
 
  I actually find a lot of variation in his portrait countenances.  In the above, for example (obv. of my Caracalla Serapis den.), he seems not the least bit angry to me.
  In fact, he looks to me rather pleased with something / someone – or at-least, sated, contented for the moment.
 
  Some he does indeed look quite angry or perturbed; others he looks concerned, indignant or ‘contested’ (for lack of better descriptive); again elsewhere, reflective or contemplative, sometimes just rather serene …
 
  Of his coin portraits, I find a slight majority of them to show him as a handsome man independent of his prevailing mood.
 
  :)
 
   Best, as ever –
   Tia
 
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Offline ecoli

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2006, 12:05:59 am »
@Tia

not someone you want to meet 1 o'clock in the morning in a back ally...

Anyway, Since all the handsome ones were taken, here is my Mr Ugly


Offline DruMAX

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2006, 12:30:42 am »


Trebonius Gallus gets the award for showing up to the portrait sitting drunk...and naked.





and Vitellius :) Well I just love his portraits...So life like some of them.


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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2006, 12:28:19 pm »
 
    I’ve wondered for quite some time whether I’m the only girl who consistently finds many of Caracalla’s coin portraits handsome…
 
  *shrugging shoulders*   ..I know, but what can I say?
 
 

I think I know what you mean, Tia, and I think you're right. Several portraits of Caracalla show a strong, determined and good-looking man. For one thing, the world is not like a Walt Disney movie where you recognize evil people by the warts on their noses, the piercing look in their small eyes and their squeaky-scratchy voice - Septimius Severus and Julia Domna, his parents, weren't ugly either, nor was Geta.
Second, no man is always evil or always good. Caracalla's behaviour certainly also depended on his daily mood and many other things, and it can't be that he had NO friends (the soldiers loved him!). But of course, growing up as a heir apparent of the world's greatest empire could easily corrupt one's character if this character wasn't VERY strong (Marcus Aurelius got along with it, Commodus didn't)!

Rupert
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Offline Tiathena

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2006, 02:42:22 pm »
 
    Hi Rupert!
 
  Thanks for those added thoughts…
  I sure agree …
  In a critique of the aesthetic-qualities of ‘a man’ (any man; and I think this should be plural before it is reduced to a singularity), I seem naturally inclined to see some handsomeness in most – I might say in all but the Thersitesian sort, so there is some ‘problem’ for me a priori in any event in speaking to questions regarding handsome men, unless it is one more specifically questioning after the ‘exceptionally-handsome.’
  I of course think there is the inescapable, unmistakable handsomeness in the type whose visage is cast with the warm aura of the Pater Patriae, such as Antoninus Pius, Aurelius (even Verus, Commodus and those whose character may not seem consistent with that typification), Hadrian certainly and even Pertinax and P. Niger fall into this category to my eyes, to say nothing of Septimius as you mention, who had this look almost as if he had intentionally cultivated it – but it isn’t ‘extraordinary’ per se, or at least I don’t think or feel so.
  It’s in this sort of sense as much as in any intrinsic-appreciation that I find even a masculine-beauty in so many of Caracalla’s coin portraits.  I have much suspected too, that had he lived to reach a ‘riper age,’ Geta would likely have even surpassed his brother in this regard – at-least those child portraits which seem to suggest some actual realism, incline me to that suspicion.  It’s a shame he perished when and as he did, mostly because he deserved better, but too, I’d have much loved to see faithful portraits of him later in life.
 
  As you rightly say, too – none of these perceptions or considerations are owed, nor obfuscated by whatever may be thought of the subject’s nature or temper.
  After all, Ted Bundy’s ‘success’ as a sociopath was predicated on the countless women who found him irresistibly attractive ( I’ve never been able to see anything notably handsome in his face – aesthetically-neutral ).
 
  I also agree with what I at-least believe you insinuate here – and I’ll even go further in saying that I’m more than a little persuaded that Caracalla has been much maligned and slandered beyond just deserts by history & historians.
  That he was ruthless and brutal hardly renders him exceptional among Roman politicos, empowered or otherwise, and can hardly surprise us as eldest son of Septimius Severus and the time & circumstances in which he came to power.  If he left so much administration of the Empire to his mother and consilium principis for remaining true to his own character and desire of keeping himself with the Army, there is still little reason to doubt his devotion to the glory of Rome and dignitas of his family name and the Imperial title.  His purge of Getanites, real or imagined, must have been driven by a genuine sense of necessity – however much it may have been psychologically augmented by a lasting hatred of his brother.
  I’ve never yet felt that the whole image we have of him quite adds up, so to speak.  It has been too easy to accuse and brand him for all that was apparent, and I much suspect that has been taken as a cumulative-judgment – history as argumentum ad hominum -  ..again ...
 
  Best, as ever –
  Tia
 
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Offline Rupert

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2006, 03:36:10 pm »
Historians, especially, I think, Christian historians of late antiquity, tended to black-and-white painting very much; there were a few saint-like and a lot of utterly devilish emperors. We have to take these accounts cum grano salis. Still I'd sure prefer living at the court of Antoninus Pius to a life near Domitian, Commodus or Caracalla - no doubt about that!

Rupert

PS: Saddam Hussein was a handsome man too...
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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2006, 04:05:28 pm »
What always gets forgotten: yes, Galba's and Vitellius's and the famous last Caracalla's images are magnificent and magnetic portraits.  That doesn't mean one wants to know one of them in person or would find him interesting in person (or not: I think Galba may have been interesting and, in his day, attractive).  BUT the magnetic attraction of those portraits is the work of the creator of the type and the skill of the engravers of the best coins, and the remarkable and interesting thing about the emperors, in most cases, is that they had the interest and taste in portraiture, or at least the interest in making themselves look fierce and magnetic (Imperial, in a word), that made those portraitists get hired.
This holds true even with photography.  The images in Once Upon a Time in the West, the images in Superman, as Kevin Spasey pointed out talking with Charlie Rose, are created using the actors as putty, brilliantly gifted but putty, clay, wax.  Meaning what: Caracalla's portraitist couldn't have done THAT with the face of Nero, but the Prometheus or whatever mythic prototype you choose was the artist, who saw what might be wanted and was able to create it out of what nature gave him to start from.  It is the artist, au fond, that you find attractive.
Pat L.

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2006, 05:21:01 pm »
 
    I again agree with you here, too, Rupert.
  I’d also have much preferred seat or place in some other court.  That of Antoninus Pius would do nicely.  I might have even thoroughly delighted in Titus’ court.
 
   Rather expectedly I suppose, of course I agree with Pat here too.
  It is why I’ve here above said in both instances of my specific mention & reference to Caracalla, the coin portraits – though not all of them.
 
  I wouldn’t say it’s the artist I find attractive though, although I believe I know what you mean; but the artist’s aesthete and the end-fruits of his objectified intent.  Yes, most-assuredly.  Those portraits I find exceptionally-handsome.
 
  “Saddam Hussein was a handsome man too...
 
  :)  ..He really actually was – especially in his younger days.  The same cannot at-all be said of his (now late) near neighbor, Hafez al-Assad (who I always thought looked much like his character & personality).
 
   Best, as always –
   Tia
 
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Offline DruMAX

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2006, 05:30:49 pm »
I love the realism in much of early imperial roman busts and portraits. They dont seem to mind showing themselves as they are on the whole and the quality and artistry is second to none IMO. Vespasian, Titus, Nero, Galba, Vitellius, Caracalla, etc......to see busts and coins of these men, and the consensus between coins and statues makes one think you are indeed looking at a true visage of the man and not an idealized portrayal...

Offline Marius

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2006, 06:50:54 pm »
This is a great set of posts.
Please take a look this Lucius Verus:
http://www.sonic.net/~rbeale/mysite/Lucius.htm

Also, here are more portraits of Gallus with a with remarks:
http://www.sonic.net/~rbeale/mysite/no-shame.htm
Richard Marius Beale
Four Bad Years:  http://sonic.net/~marius1/mysite/

basemetal

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2006, 10:59:36 pm »
Tiathena:
I find the answer simple:
You are a "bad boy" addict. :)     
Caracalla intentionally made his portraits as if he were astride a Harley.  In his times strength was both wise ....and  a good idea!

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2006, 11:31:30 pm »
 
     :)
 
    It’s a good working theory, Basemetal – let me promote it to insight.
  I’ve no problem admitting I’d long been attracted to the type (within limits and until I met my bad boy, my husband) – a long fondness of, for instance the rugged good looks of Sam Elliot who certainly straddles a Harley with style
  His voice alone is almost enough to make me purr …  I wonder what Caracalla’s voice sounded like?  ( hmmmm …. )
 
       
 
  I’m fairly sure tho’ I could paint an even more robust ‘image’ of the human, all-too-humanness of the Severan men in a very Sartrean-esque manner …
  It’s not difficult to imagine.
 
   It is interesting too, the jump some make from my speaking of ‘appearances’ to offering cautionary ‘enlightenment' regarding essence.
  I never said I wanted a time machine to go back & date the man …  ;)
 
  ..Although – I would have liked to meet him – in all his refinements and coarseness alike.
  It is a luxurious prerogative of the purely imaginary that curiosity & intellectual interest in such regard damn the reasonable & plausible with equal apathy …
 
    Best, as always -
    Tia
   
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Offline Numerianus

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2006, 12:23:51 pm »
I noticed also that one  can find  easier  a good portrait of Antoninus Pius that than that of Marcus  Aurelius.
This phenomenon (if it does exists) can  be explained  not by  a degradation of an artistic  quality/quality control or changing of tastes
but by the fact that Marcus is much more popular  and   people are ready to pay a premium for good coins with his effigy.

 

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2006, 01:10:19 pm »
I admire Marcus Aurelius, too, but the example you posted is evidence for the superiority, technically and artistically, of Antoninunus Pius coinage: the young Aurelius Caesar coins were struck for his adoptive father, as were those of his young bride, Faustina Minor.
Whether it is a question of which emperors cared more for coinage images to convey the propaganda of their reigns, or of which emperors stayed at home in Italy and which had to campaign afield, or something else, I do not know.  Marcus Aurelius denarii are not exactly memorable coins, for the most partPat L.

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2006, 11:08:25 pm »
Hi slokind - One other possibility exists, and since we know so little about the engravers, we can only speculate. Since the coinage of Marcus Aurelius is indeed somewhat uninspired, what if a particular engraver died or retired right before his reign? I think many of us assume artistic talent is indeed, rare but still widespread enough in populated areas and developed cultures such that, for the most part a "switch" of personnel will only mean continued excellence with an individualistic style present to the discerning eye. Yet, in the US series for example, there are engravers, and there were Engravers. Charles Barber was particularly uninspired, yet St. Gaudens, a relative contemporary, was so brilliant, his 20 dollar US gold piece is one of the most beautiful coins ever made - by anyone. Joe

basemetal

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Re: Coin portraits - why are some consistently mediocre?
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2006, 08:42:01 pm »
In regards as to how the emperors mentioned above would have appeared and acted in real life, I offer the comparison of movies before and after "talkies" came about.  Some actors and actresses made the transition and some did not.  My point is that we might find some unexpected things about our emperors quite surprising. 
Can you imagine Nero with a voice like James Earl Jones, or the latin equivalent.  I believe that we through his appearance assume he must have had an unattractive voice as Peter Ustinov portrayed him. But he did recite and sing and most sources denigrate his talent, but few say he was untalented, just not great.
Caracalla may indeed have had a voice like Sam Elliot's (Tiathena-my wife agrees with you-she fell in love with him in "Lifeguard" do you remember that one?)
Or he may have sounded like Pauley Shore.
Antoninus Pius (my personal favorite) may have been regal in all respects, but he was also known as the "cumin-splitter" (tightwad).  Meaning he might have always found a reason why not instead of why.  That's usually not an endearing personal attribute (think Scrooge in "A Christmas Carol")
And finally, though the realisim of the busts of some of my favorite emperors is one of my favorite parts of ancient coin collecting, the muscular development and the dimensions of  ah.......certian physical attributes are most likely not quite lifelike though probably carved or cast more for symmentry.  But the bronzes and marbles  did not circulate throughout the empire and so some artistic license was understandable. 
An accurate portrayal of the facial features on coinage was perhaps very important-this is Caracalla-accept no substitues.

 

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