Author Topic: Possible fake Athenian owl on Ebay (Read 6144 times)

Necroporta · « **on:** February 09, 2014, 08:12:55 pm »

Won this for much less than Athenian silvers normally go. It was titled as an Athenian TetraDrachma but the weight is far less, (8.3g) obviously far nearer but not quite the weight of a didrachm. So I am suspicious. If anyone could perhaps identify this coin from the photos as either a fake or a genuine Athenian coin. I have looked through photos on your excellent photo base and found no match. The seller dates it to 300 BC.

Regards, Necro, Greek and Roman Historian

Seller was Saxby Coins.

I raised the issue with him:

"Hello,

Regarding the item I have purchased, it is called in the description a Tetra-drachma. But the weight of the coin (8.3 grams was it?) is over half that of an Athenian Tetradrachm (which is nominally over 17 grams).

The Athenians did have a coin called a Didrachm which is closer in weight to the item that i won at auction.

I am wondering if there was a mistake in either naming the product, or weighing it?"

He replies: "ello again. I understand your point and the series is vast and rather complicated, ranging from AR 15 - AR 30 so i suppose this is somewhere in between, it is also smaller than standard tets. With regards from all @ saxbys coins

- saxbys-coins"

Item details as provided: "Rare c.300 B.C Ancient Greece Attica Athens Silver Tetra-Drachma Coin

Uncleaned - Fine state - ATTICA series ATHENS owl issue

For your consideration is a very rare, ancient greece period and origin, an early issue of the Athens region, within the ATTICA island, dating to circa.400 - 350 B.C, Ar Silver composition, hammered type tetra-drachma coin. Both obverse and reverse sides display much of their original detail & images. The coin is presented in VF ( very fine ) grade. The coin has not been cleaned in any way.

Obverse : Head of ATHENA wearing crested helmet, right.

Reverse : Owl staged right, head facing right, AOE to right, olive leaf and berry to left,control mark below to right.

specifications.

   Silver composition
   24.0 mm Diameter
   8.25 grams weight
   VF ( very fine ) grade - scarce issue"

stlnats · « **Reply #1 on:** February 09, 2014, 08:35:00 pm »

Sorry to say, but it looks similar to the repro I carried around for years as a pocket piece albeit without the wear. Even the flan is shaped the same and the finish is the same as was on mine before I started to carry it. It was included in an advertising mailing to my parents, but sold in many other venues as well. I thought these were listed in the fake reports as well and I think there was a discussion not too long ago about the fakes so you may wish to do a search.

An obvious question, I guess, is what references did you use to determine it was genuine before bidding?

stlnats · « **Reply #2 on:** February 09, 2014, 08:43:41 pm »

Oh good lord, I just saw your addition. Saxby's is on the NOTORIOUS FAKE SELLERS LIST: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=18502.0

Necroporta · « **Reply #3 on:** February 09, 2014, 08:50:45 pm »

I am a first time buyer and stupidly bought it before becoming suspicious. I am bad with Ebay I'll come out and say it. I have not received the item it was dispatched today, but i can refund obviously. You gents thinking I should send it straight back? It all seems rather dodgy.

stlnats · « **Reply #4 on:** February 09, 2014, 08:58:55 pm »

Here's the same item, I think, in the fake reports:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?album=10&pos=417
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?album=10&pos=353

I received mine as a kid nearly 40 years ago, but the same cast repro has been done, with changes in quality, metal, finish, etc, ever since. Some distinctive diagnostics are no dot in the

in

, owl has no beak, and the shape of the flan.

Necroporta · « **Reply #5 on:** February 09, 2014, 09:02:43 pm »

Well that is decided then, I shan't even open It I will send it straight back. Thanks a bunch guys, I shall certainly use this website from now on rather than Ebay. Should I accuse Saxby of selling a fake or just send it back saying it wasn't as described do you think?

Arados · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2014, 09:24:25 pm »

Your not the first and you won't be the last to be fooled by fake sellers, try sticking to reliable dealers e.g Forvm coin shop. Or wait until your secure in your knowledge of coins before buying from other dealers.

All the best
Arados

Sam · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2014, 09:46:04 pm »

I hope this story will be to you one day , like " Been there , done that , can't remember "

Sam

SRukke · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2014, 09:49:26 pm »

There is a fake seller list on this website. Saxbys is on the list and is one of the most notorious fake sellers there is. If at all possible, please leave him negative feedback. Even if you get your money back, if you have the ability to leave it please do.

Necroporta · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2014, 10:08:49 pm »

Thanks everyone for the sage and expert information, kind words and guidance.

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 09, 2014, 10:34:15 pm »

Yes, please leave a Negative, though for some reason they can have them removed. This guy is one of the worst!

Oh and welcome to Forum!

EDIT: I've added it to the fake reports

stairman · « **Reply #11 on:** February 10, 2014, 12:20:12 am »

When you send it back, make sure you use delivery confirmation.

Andrew McCabe · « **Reply #12 on:** February 10, 2014, 09:49:39 am »

Quote from: Necroporta on February 09, 2014, 09:02:43 pm

Well that is decided then, I shan't even open It I will send it straight back. Thanks a bunch guys, I shall certainly use this website from now on rather than Ebay. Should I accuse Saxby of selling a fake or just send it back saying it wasn't as described do you think?

Send it back, use delivery confirmation, say coin appears to be a forgery, ask for refund, do so very quickly. Do NOT tell them you intend to leave a negative, on the contrary you can say that you'll be happy once you get your money back. Do NOT mention Forum, just that on examination it appears a cast forgery.

(1) watch the 60 day rule on eBay. Saxbys will probably try delay giving you refund as long as possible because once 60 days is reached, you can't leave a negative, and that's what they fear

(2) if you get your money back, LEAVE A NEGATIVE immediately. Say that the coin is a forgery and that the seller is a notorious seller of forgeries.

(3) if you haven't got your refund by 35-40 days or so since the auction closed, open an ebay and paypal disputes (don't delay). That allows time to make your point and have ebay intervene. If not dealt with by day 55 or so, LEAVE A NEGATIVE. The dispute will remain open and you'll get your money back in time, and you'll just add a note to the dispute that because of the slow pace, and the 60 day limit, you felt obliged to leave a negative. Be aware than when you send the coin with delivery confirmation, Saxbys might play tricks such as not signing for it, or signing for it and still claiming it is not received, in order to play for time. So, check the postal website. Remember they are fraudsters so expect them to act as such. Also they may offer to 'trade' your refund for removing the negative. This is another trick. Say you'll be happy to consider anything once you get your refund. Get your refund, and then don't remove your negative.

Saxby's and other notorious fake sellers avoids negatives because (a) they soft soap buyers with refunds (b) many fake sellers string out the process so that the 60 day limit for leaving negatives is missed.

Good luck. Sorry we are all recommending you leave a negative so strongly, but without some negatives, Saxbys is going to continue defrauding innocent coin collectors for years to come.

Sam · « **Reply #13 on:** February 10, 2014, 10:04:00 am »

Quote from: Andrew McCabe on February 10, 2014, 09:49:39 am

Quote from: Necroporta on February 09, 2014, 09:02:43 pm
Well that is decided then, I shan't even open It I will send it straight back. Thanks a bunch guys, I shall certainly use this website from now on rather than Ebay. Should I accuse Saxby of selling a fake or just send it back saying it wasn't as described do you think?

Send it back, use delivery confirmation, say coin appears to be a forgery, ask for refund, do so very quickly. Do NOT tell them you intend to leave a negative, on the contrary you can say that you'll be happy once you get your money back. Do NOT mention Forum, just that on examination it appears a cast forgery.

(1) watch the 60 day rule on eBay. Saxbys will probably try delay giving you refund as long as possible because once 60 days is reached, you can't leave a negative, and that's what they fear

(2) if you get your money back, LEAVE A NEGATIVE immediately. Say that the coin is a forgery and that the seller is a notorious seller of forgeries.

(3) if you haven't got your refund by 35-40 days or so since the auction closed, open an ebay and paypal disputes (don't delay). That allows time to make your point and have ebay intervene. If not dealt with by day 55 or so, LEAVE A NEGATIVE. The dispute will remain open and you'll get your money back in time, and you'll just add a note to the dispute that because of the slow pace, and the 60 day limit, you felt obliged to leave a negative. Be aware than when you send the coin with delivery confirmation, Saxbys might play tricks such as not signing for it, or signing for it and still claiming it is not received, in order to play for time. So, check the postal website. Remember they are fraudsters so expect them to act as such.

Saxby's and other notorious fake sellers avoids negatives because (a) they soft soap buyers with refunds (b) many fake sellers string out the process so that the 60 day limit for leaving negatives is missed.

Good luck. Sorry we are all recommending you leave a negative so strongly, but without some negatives, Saxbys is going to continue defrauding innocent coin collectors for years to come.

Andrew McCabe · « **Reply #14 on:** February 10, 2014, 10:08:45 am »

Quote from: Necroporta on February 09, 2014, 09:02:43 pm

I shan't even open

PS,
DO open the package. If not opened, then any claim it is a forgery may have your negative removed and/or might cause a refund problem, as you won't have a valid basis for returning it.

Necroporta · « **Reply #15 on:** February 10, 2014, 11:04:49 am »

I shall follow these instructions as soon as I get it, thank you.

Necroporta · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2014, 02:06:01 pm »

Received the coin. Now that i know a bit more its obviously fake as you all said, organised a return and am taking it to the courier right now. Thanks guys I shall keep this thread updated.

Necroporta · « **Reply #17 on:** February 15, 2014, 11:55:21 am »

Refund given!

areich · « **Reply #18 on:** February 15, 2014, 12:17:05 pm »

Of course he'll give a refund. That's what professional frauds do.

Necroporta · « **Reply #19 on:** February 15, 2014, 01:30:10 pm »

I can't leave negative feedback for some days as he is a "power seller" but I will as soon as i can

Necroporta · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2014, 03:24:43 pm »

"Upon inspection was found to be fake. Seller is a notorious fakes seller. Beware"

Left this review

n.igma · « **Reply #21 on:** February 20, 2014, 04:20:49 pm »

A Wilbert Replica.... comes up with monotonous regularity... the story behind it here.. https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=84634.0 ....

Quote from: Lloyd Taylor on December 09, 2012, 05:44:48 am

Quote from: glebe on December 09, 2012, 05:17:52 am
This coin is clearly not an official issue of Athens, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a modern fake. Several ancient states and local rulers copied this type, although usually more convincingly than this.
It could however be the product of some semi-nomadic pastoral people living on the fringes of the "civilized" world, but I can't speak with any authority on such types.

I beg to differ - this is a Wilbert Replica.... a promotion by a US funeral home in the 1960's and 1970's. Commonly found in the US "mum and pop memorabilia" of deceased estates etc.

Read about the Wilbert replica series here with some exact matches to the coin heading the thread:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=72540.0
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=74830.0
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=61863.0
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=64277.0
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=50336.0

Strangely none appear to be recorded as Wilbert Replicas in the Fakes Reports (at least when I search in the Fakes Reports on the term Wilbert Replica it draws a nil result) - a bit of an omission given the frequency of occurrence and repeated postings on this board. When I get some time I'll rectify the omission, if no one does before me.

and here ... https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=61863.0

Lee S · « **Reply #22 on:** February 20, 2014, 04:26:07 pm »

Quote from: Necroporta on February 20, 2014, 03:24:43 pm

"Upon inspection was found to be fake. Seller is a notorious fakes seller. Beware"

Left this review

Respect to you for doing precisely the right thing !!!

Most of what this douchbag sells is fake, some of them good fakes,
Some of them bad...
But if you scroll through his listings you will find that almost every coin that could be IS a "UK metal detector find".... Because that makes it genuine!?!?! ... I have a great interest in the early coinage of the UK and this guys cheek makes my blood boil!

Once more.. Well done for doing the right thing for the whole Ancient numismatics community.. You can feel proud!

Necroporta · « **Reply #23 on:** February 20, 2014, 04:48:12 pm »

It was the very least I could do as you all helped me so swiftly and kindly.

Thank you all

Jay GT4 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 02, 2014, 12:02:58 pm »

Well, surprise, surprise...ebay removed the comments left by Necroporta...

News:

Author Topic: Possible fake Athenian owl on Ebay (Read 6144 times)

stairman