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Author Topic: Who are great collectors?  (Read 6202 times)

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Offline Numerianus

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Who are great collectors?
« on: July 31, 2007, 12:16:30 pm »
I am sure that this  question was already discussed at Forum:
Who are the great ancient coin collectors?
Who can afford to pay for a single coin hundreds of thousands?
Who are heroes of the hobby? Bill Gates? Roman Abramovich?

Offline GMoneti

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2007, 03:47:44 pm »
I haven't heard Bill Gates buying any coins, though he bought some DaVinci drawings a few years ago, so maybe he has an affinity for historical events prior to 1975.   ;D
Georgi

Offline DruMAX

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2007, 04:26:22 pm »
John Quincy Adams collected coins, including ancient Roman coins. His collection was owned by the Massachusetts Historical Society, sold by auction in 1971.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2007, 04:29:13 pm »
I wonder what the criterion for a 'great' collector would be? Maybe a special sale of their collection at a big auction house?
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Scipio Helveticus

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2007, 04:31:56 pm »
I wonder what the criterion for a 'great' collector would be? Maybe a special sale of their collection at a big auction house?

Or maybe an Aureus/Soldius for each emperor? ;D (Is/was there any such collection?)

Offline wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2007, 06:37:43 pm »
As Curtis points out (better, implies) in a current thread on the greatest collections on the Roman Coin forum, a great collector would have to gather a coherent mass of coins outstanding in his/her area(s) of specialization, one that would become a standard reference point for future scholarship.  The collections of von Aulock and Levante, for example.  He gives the example of the BCD collection, which is being sold in special sales at several large auction houses (not just one).  The catalogues of these sales will become standard references in their own right for these coins (here Greece).  To do this takes much more than money, although it requires oodles of it.  There are many, many thousands of people in the world who can cough up enough for the most expensive coin (most of them living in Geneva it seems).  A collection of a gold coin for each emperor, or a haphazard assembly of exquisite examples of pretty coins that requires only a lot of available lucre to amass need not apply.  Of course, I would be happy to have either!  Just an opinion from the homeless encampment below the freeway overpass, George Spradling
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basemetal

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2007, 08:24:05 pm »
Lol...wandigeaux!
I can see it now.  Individual standing beside freeway with cardboard sign:
NUMISMATIC VETERAN.
LOST COLLECTION TO EX-WIFE'S LAWYER.
WILL WORK FOR ANCIENT ROMAN COINS.
OF AUGUSTUS, TIBERIUS, TRAJAN, VESPASIAN. ;D

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2007, 08:52:06 pm »
Unfortunately, I badly specify the question.  It was exactly about of who are those spending milions for their
collections which not necerrily have great scientific value.  One dealer told me how he was surprised to see  in Munich a young Russian guy who spent for coins more than one million euros at a sinle auction.  What is the  name of this passionate collector and similar?

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2007, 09:07:19 pm »
Exactly such buyers almost always endeavor to remain unknown and anonymous.  They don't want burglars stealing their coins, or govenments trying to collect tax on their sale.  The best chance for such collections to become generally known is when the collector dies or decides to sell and the coins are dispersed by public auction.

There have been famous millionaire coin collectors in the past, for example J. P. Morgan, the Garretts, the Hunt brothers.
Curtis Clay

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2007, 05:14:10 am »
I remember reading somewhere that Enrico Caruso had a fine collection of Roman gold and that Jackie Onassis had a good collection of Greek coins.

Steve

Offline Jochen

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2007, 06:52:56 am »
For some coins of the Caruso coll. you may look here http://www.coinarchives.com/a/results.php?results=100&search=caruso

Best regards

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2007, 04:58:38 pm »
Looking at this aureus we can conclude that Caruso had a good taste!
But who bought the coin several months ago for 100KCHF + buyers fee?
I am sure that Forum's members know names of modern  collectors who can afford
to collect such coins. I hardly believe that this is a secret since collecting is a social activity and collectors needs to show their treasures (irrelevantly of the level). I also do not believe that
the burglars are the main concern for these guys ...

Offline wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2007, 06:11:48 pm »
I think that burglars are a concern, but the main ones, to me, would be the tax collector, the customs men, and the wife (unless she be a trophy wife).  Also, I know that, as a dealer (albeit in books), I would never freely share with other dealers the names of any customers I may have with bottomless pockets (if I had any)!  Further, being able to plunk down a large sum for any object does not make one a great collector, just a rich one.  Cheers, George Spradling
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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2007, 11:26:44 pm »
Further, being able to plunk down a large sum for any object does not make one a great collector, just a rich one.  Cheers, George Spradling

And this I think is the essential quote. Another variation on this is being rich doesn't mean you have good taste, it just means that you're rich.

Offline Numerianus

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2007, 02:04:13 am »
It does! I profoundly disagree with you, Doug. 
Many people became rich being driven by a good taste. 
Look attentively for the auctions from the list kindly provided by Jochen.
Someone paid 60KCHF  above the estimate (for other lots the surplus was not scu enormous).
This show a good taste, at least, of two bidders (or their adviser who is the Forum member, I may guess ;)).   

Offline Pscipio

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2007, 03:44:13 am »
Stylewise, this Licinius aureus is no match to any Leontinoi, Syracuse or Lykkeios tetradrachm (to name just a few examples), in my opinion, so buying it is not at all a prove of good taste but only of deep pockets. But sure: chacun à son gout. I think, though, that the idea of being rich usually equals having good taste is mere nonsense.

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Offline areich

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2007, 03:53:45 am »
I think the fact that rich people generally buy better things,
better food, better wine, furniture, coins etc. has nothing to do with taste.
It's just that, in general, more expensive things are better.
And if you're rich you can hire someone with good taste
for your interior decorating, e.g..

I agree with Lars, for that kind of money you could buy much nicer
and more aesthetically pleasing coins.

Andreas
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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2007, 07:23:39 am »
Hi,

In answer to the first part of the question I think you could argue that the great collectors are those whose collection and knowledge actually add to the subject of numismatics and actually make their findings and reasonings available to others.

Don't get me wrong, I have the Bunker Hunt sales catalogues and they are a great pictorial reference of many dream coins and it is a dream to once have had the opportunity of seeing that collection in the flesh, all neatly trayed out in a series of splendid cabinets (I don't know whether it was held that way or just in packets in a bank vault).

Regards,

Mauseus


Offline rick fox

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2007, 01:21:43 pm »
I think if we parsed this question for those of us on the Forum, Curtis would almost certainly be at the top of the list.

I had a very short time to visit him in Chicago, and in our discussion he mentioned that he has sold either whole collections or very large portions of them to the BM.

I guess my question (back to the original one) is what makes a good collection...

My collection here at my house is better than the one owned by the Indiana Museum of Art, which believe it or not, has a display of Roman coins for their artistic value.

Does a great collector have to have a large volume of coins, or expensive coins?
I am collecting Tacitus coins.  When I have all of them (and I will), does this make me an important collector?  Certainly to anyone else who is interested in Tacitus

What about people who have 1000's of coins but they are late 4th century AE3's and AE4's.  How would one rate that collection?
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Online mauseus

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2007, 01:58:07 pm »
Hi,

I guess where I was going was that just having thousands of coins doesn't make you a great collector, it's what you do with them.

Take our friend "Viv" buying the Probus. It's fine to assemble the collection but you have to ask why. For pleasure and enjoyment, sure, but that in my mind doesn't make you a great collector. To properly arrange that collection, get some insight into it's organisation and how the individual pieces came to be made, for example, lifts you from being a gatherer of items to something more. Now I'm not casting doubts on "Viv" because I know he has some good ideas about why he's doing it, and with a purpose, it's just an example.

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2007, 03:38:08 pm »
1.  The profusion of rare varieties in ancient coinage is so immense, that it is impossible for any collection, public or private, to attain completeness in any larger field.  There are hundreds of unique or almost unique variants, with new ones emerging all the time, so it's impossible for one collection to grab ALL of them!

2.  Because of this profusion of rarities, it is relatively easy for a private collector to amass a numismatically important collection, one that contains large numbers of very rare coins, some totally unpublished, and many missing in even the best public collections.

3.  Money matters!  A great collection should be characterized not only by an impressive array of rarities, but by the best obtainable condition for every coin, and it should include the expensive denominations, for example aurei, quinarii, and medallions, as well as the everyday ones.

4.  Important collections can sink virtually without a trace if they are dispersed on eBay or though the dealer on the corner by the heirs, so PUBLISH YOUR COLLECTION!  Write your own book, create a website, make your collection known to academics who are compiling catalogues, consult with a numismatically active museum that you could bequeath the collection to, or make sure the heirs consign the collection to a competent firm who can record it in a good printed catalogue!
Curtis Clay

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2007, 04:16:35 pm »
That's the big dilemma; if you make a good website for your favourite period, then other people will latch on to it, and you could easily find the price going up! But yes, the unpublished collection is of no value to anyone. First, though, you must amass it somehow, and avoid too many questions from the wife about how much money is disappearing into a bottomless abyss.
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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2007, 04:26:44 pm »
That's the big dilemma; if you make a good website for your favourite period, then other people will latch on to it, and you could easily find the price going up!

Yes, please remember that VLPP coins are actually quite common and the variations should only be of interest to a specialist!


Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2007, 04:29:19 pm »
It wouldn't be too expensive to amass a Very Important Collection either, though it's hard to see CNG issuing a glossy catalogue of them after the collector's demise!
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Offline rick fox

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Re: Who are great collectors?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2007, 10:00:21 pm »
Why would CNG have to produce the catalog?
One of the best books in my collection is Ras's ERIC.  It is not (per se) a CNG book.

Curtis showed me a set of French books on Tacitus and Florian

I think it would be very interesting to have a book published for a personal collection.  Especially if it is a "complete" (quotes to denote as Curtis said, you can never have every variant) collection.

Maybe one day when Viv has a complete Probus collection, it can be published.
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