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Author Topic: Fluency in Ancient Languages  (Read 5607 times)

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Offline Aarmale

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Fluency in Ancient Languages
« on: July 30, 2011, 02:58:30 pm »
I can read and understand some ancient languages, such as Ancient Hebrew and Aramaic from previous studies.  This makes it much easier for me to try to read and understand other Semitic and Levantine languages.  I can read Greek and Latin, but can only understand small bits and pieces.

Can anyone fluently read and/or understand an ancient language?  If so, which language, and how did you learn it?
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2011, 05:15:47 pm »
No, but I've been wishing for years that I'd taken Latin seriously at school! Problem was, it was presented in the most boring way. Agricola defeated the Belgians. Caesar defeated the Gauls. Caesar conquered the Gauls...

These days I have some brilliant Greek and Hebrew resources, and much as I'd like to learn to read them properly, I don't really need to. I get better slowly.
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Offline Stkp

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2011, 06:00:54 pm »
I would be thrilled if I had simply learned to read a second MODERN language when I was young!

Offline Syltorian

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2011, 06:22:45 pm »
My Latin is "making sense of most texts after a while, dictionary and re-reading and context helping". At our university there was a Latin Conversation Society however, which I never went to. Even we ancient historians  (those I met when this got mentioned, at any rate) left that to the Classicists and possibly the theologians. I guess these people speak Latin fluently, whatever their accent was. It gets really interesting if you have, in the same Latin class, an Italian, a Welsh, and a Continental (me), trying to read Latin aloud, each in their own accent. I wonder whether there ever was a meeting between a Roman, a Silures and a Treveran, and whether their accents differed as much as ours did.

I did actually do some Middle Egyptian, up to the point where I could translate small - and chosen - texts with a lot of time (and a dictionary) on my hands, but that was years ago. As they say: the more your learn, the more you know; the more you know, the more you forget... It's been too long to remember much of what is a very complicated grammar with an unfamiliar script and naturally, virtually no words which resemble those of other languages I know. It is really a pity. I'd rather have liked to be able to decipher more on Egyptian inscriptions (uncommon as they are in numismatics ;)) and papyri. Refreshing that might be a future project. And there are so many future projects...


Offline Danny S. Jones

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2011, 11:51:13 pm »
My Latin isn't good at all (see my side quote), but I teach Koiné Greek, and I have studied Classical Greek and Hebrew over the years. After I started collecting Judean coins, I began to study Proto-Hebrew script as well as Aramaic and as Aarmale stated, other Semitic and Levantine languages. I have also studied archaic Thai and Lao, as well as speaking Isaan and modern Thai. I spent four years studying French in college, which I have all but forgotten for lack of use.

It's nice to have several friends here to help decipher difficult scripts or might more easily recognize something that might otherwise take a lot of time to translate.

Offline SkySoldier

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2011, 03:29:08 pm »
I can read and write Latin and Attic Greek, and I can expand a significant portion of abbreviations found in medieval notarial registers; however, it's something I need to constantly practice and work on, as I don't use these skills in my profession.  (Thank goodness for Wheelock).

Offline commodus

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2011, 03:48:28 pm »
I studied Latin throughout high school and for part of my university career (which has been a while ago now; I graduated from university almost 24 years ago). I can't say I attained fluency, but I have a decent-ish reading knowledge of it and with a good dictionary at hand -- so I can fill in those inevitable vocabulary gaps -- I can read most texts I encounter.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Offline esnible

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2011, 02:23:18 pm »
I can't read Latin or Greek.  I wish to point out Reggie Foster who is fluent in Latin.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-04-21-latin-foster_x.htm
There is an even more glowing profile of Foster in Alexander Stille's book _The Future of the Past_.

He is one of the last, or the last, people who speaks Latin fluently and even dreams in Latin.

Offline SkySoldier

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2011, 02:33:18 pm »
That's a neat article, and I envy his ability.  I wish I had started as young as he did.  Since its an inflected language, anyone who knows Spanish, French or Italian has a leg up on the basics.  Once the forms are learned, then the key becomes learning vocabulary.  It's a challenge to keep up with it. 

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2011, 02:41:55 pm »
That's a neat article, and I envy his ability.  I wish I had started as young as he did.  Since its an inflected language, anyone who knows Spanish, French or Italian has a leg up on the basics.  Once the forms are learned, then the key becomes learning vocabulary.  It's a challenge to keep up with it. 

Up until 2nd Vatican in the 1960s, presumably there were maybe tens of thousands who used spoken Latin daily (if in rather of a monologue context) and of those maybe many thousand could actually speak the language. Go further back in time and I'm sure the numbers were larger, I could well imagine international conference discussions taking place in Latin.

So, there's probably quite a deal of recorded material from the late 19th century in fluent Latin. Or not? This would give a good sense of what it sounded like in a business environment, rather than in a reading-coin-inscriptions environment. Wikipedia says that it "was used as the language of international communication, scholarship and science until well into the 18th century". But I'd bet that it was still widely used by the time modern recording devices were invented in the late 19th century. The Wikipedia entry stops at "Renaissance Latin". No section on "Latin as a Modern Language" Wonder why not?


Offline Syltorian

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 02:49:41 pm »
. Wikipedia says that it "was used as the language of international communication, scholarship and science until well into the 18th century". But I'd bet that it was still widely used by the time modern recording devices were invented in the late 19th century. The Wikipedia entry stops at "Renaissance Latin". No section on "Latin as a Modern Language" Wonder why not?

I'd be hard put to find an exact reference, but I seem to remember some introductions to multilingual collections of articles who were written in Latin until the 20th century.

At any rate, C.I.L. - the Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum, which collects all known Latin inscriptions and has been first published in the late 19th century by Mommsen e.a. but is still a work in progress - has introduction and comments in in Latin. Hardly any "modern" language intrudes there at all.

Offline SkySoldier

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 03:04:50 pm »
The MGH is completely in Latin, to include all introductions.  The Corpus Scriptorum Byzantinae, which was published in the 19th century, presents Byzantine sources in Greek, but all annotated comments and footnotes are in Latin. 

There are still a large number of folks who use Latin for research, but I have never met anyone near the fluency of the guy in that article.  When I was in grad school, the Latin classes were always full.  Most people I know still need to have a grammar and dictionary at their elbow when reading Latin; I've never heard anyone speak it.  Then there are the differences in ecclesiastical and Medieval Latin with classical Latin.  I saw a Loeb volume which had edited inscriptions and graffiti from various archaeological sites, and some of the language is pretty raw, such as from Pompeii.

If you're a scholar or student in Medieval of classical history, you'll run into a lot of folks who have a good handle on Latin, but I think the Catholic church is probably the only modern institution that actually uses the language on a regular basis for business.  The rest is a scholarly curiosity.

All that being said, I definitely want my two kids to learn Latin, and possibly Greek, even if I have to teach it to them myself.  If nothing else, they'll have a good foundation in English grammar.

Offline slokind

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 03:25:03 pm »
Does writing prefaces count as fluency?  Don't OCT have prefaces in Latin even today?  I suggest you ask in Hungary.  I'm sure Andrew Alföldi could chat and argue in Latin, and probably his progeny still can.  In addition, all Hungarian diplomatic discourse was in Latin at least till after WW II.
Anyhow, at Berkeley, when rarely I was taken to the Faculty Club for lunch as a graduate student, there were several, maybe more, mostly English-educated professors, not necessarily over age 50, who chatted (it sounded like gossip) in Latin over their lunch.  Continuous conversation.  Not all Classicists, either, but I think Oxford or Cambridge, and I assume they were those who had done distinguished A-levels and had learned earlier to chat in Latin (and Greek) at their public schools.  I know for certain that H. R. W. Smith could make jokes in both languages.  I'm sure that persons of my age knew many at Harvard who had had to have both languages to get in as undergraduates and who still could speak Latin (as my parents used "pig Latin") for private conversations.  I think it's iffy that C. S. Lewis could, but just consider J. R. R. Tolkien!  For that matter, classicists at the Oxford and Cambridge women's colleges certainly could speak as well as write the languages, though they had fewer opportunities than the men.  Lytton Strachey's formidable sister surely could.  Think how Virginia Woolf envied her brother's friends.
As I said, I rarely was taken to lunch at the U. C. Faculty Club.  In the 1950s it was still all male as well as all faculty, but a female could be taken, though only to the main dining room, by a qualified male professor.  I hope the building still survives; it was of that Brown Shingle period.  It is no longer all male (wasn't by some time in the sixties).  There had been a Women's Faculty Club, but one knew few women who would use it, and if anyone there spoke Latin or Greek, I'd be surprised (of course, quite a few may have READ the ancient languages).
Pat L.

Offline mcbyrne21

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2011, 04:30:13 pm »
I found the article, and this discussion in general, very interesting as well.  I remember my high school Latin (circa mid 90s) teachers being able to converse (and occasionally swear at us) in Latin.  Now that I think about it, they were a tad eccentric as well, perhaps with the same aim of keeping us interested.

I certainly wish I had paid more attention back then.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2011, 04:41:59 pm »
Does writing prefaces count as fluency?  Don't OCT have prefaces in Latin even today?  I suggest you ask in Hungary.  I'm sure Andrew Alföldi could chat and argue in Latin, and probably his progeny still can.  

I have one of Andrew Alföldi's books in my library. One owned by him that is, as well as quite a few written by him. It is Grant's From Imperium to Auctoritas and includes many notes in pencil. I've just pulled it out for a look. Indeed my memory serves me correct - the footnotes are in English, not German and not Latin. Most are matters of historical context - comments on Grant's over-interest in Jubilees and such like.

The title page is stamped Prof. A.ALFOLDI, BERN, Chutzenstrasse 60, and there is also a hand inscribed decorative signature with a Chi-Rho monogram above and below, and a date 1946.X.8, which since the book was published in 1946 indicates an impressively quick delivery. The notes within are in the same handwriting.

Tipped into the book is a plates concordance done by Ted Buttrey - from the plates to the text, which is missing in the book. When I mentioned its provenance online a few years back, Ted sent me the concordances.

Almost entirely off-topic except my comment that Alföldi's comments were NOT in Latin, but I take any excuse available to chat about my library.

Offline Syltorian

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2011, 04:46:59 pm »
I saw a Loeb volume which had edited inscriptions and graffiti from various archaeological sites, and some of the language is pretty raw, such as from Pompeii.

Latin has some rather shocking swearwords, from Plautus through the Pompeian graffito. We had a Latin course at Uni where we translated some Martial. Somehow, an early-20th-century Loeb edition was brought into play. Martial's coarseness did not really suit the pre-WW1 translator, who tried to produce a tame translation. Unfortunately, that entailed inventing completely different passages so as not to offend the people reading the right-hand (English) side. ;D

The new versions of the Loeb Classical Library are more accurate, but less fun if you look for such discrepancies.

Offline mihali84

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2011, 05:48:06 pm »
I grew up in the U.S., first generation, with two Greek parents, so i quickly learned to speak Greek.  It wasn't until i started "Greek school" that i learned to read and write the language fluently.  I would like to learn more about the Koine Greek language, as my mother told me a little about it from what she learned. 

Never took Latin courses in grade school, and regret it as i gained nothing from learning Spanish, which i hear all the time in MA due to the large latin american population here, not to mention every product here has spanish translations on it.  As much as i would like to learn latin i think i would rather expand my Greek vocabulary, as i am getting a bit rusty not living with the parents of course, where i would hear it all day.  






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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2011, 05:52:08 pm »
I saw a Loeb volume which had edited inscriptions and graffiti from various archaeological sites, and some of the language is pretty raw, such as from Pompeii.

Latin has some rather shocking swearwords, from Plautus through the Pompeian graffito. We had a Latin course at Uni where we translated some Martial. Somehow, an early-20th-century Loeb edition was brought into play. Martial's coarseness did not really suit the pre-WW1 translator, who tried to produce a tame translation. Unfortunately, that entailed inventing completely different passages so as not to offend the people reading the right-hand (English) side. ;D

The new versions of the Loeb Classical Library are more accurate, but less fun if you look for such discrepancies.


That must have been fun. I had a Latin master who read us H P Lovecraft stories on Saturday mornings, but apart from that it was completely dull. Monsters were the only thing I ever got from school Latin!
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Offline slokind

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2011, 09:53:30 pm »
I didn't mean to suggest that Alföldi used Latin in publications or that he didn't mostly use Englsih.  Only, I am sure he knew the ancient languages.  I suppose that I ought to have used a new paragraph...

Offline esnible

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2011, 11:43:06 pm »
Here is a video of Reggie Foster talking in Latin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sOfAaO9Xx4
Here is a 7 minute news clip on his Milwaukee Latin class: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQ6CWx7V2c

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2011, 02:54:58 am »
Here is Latin news bulletin on Radio 1
fridays:

http://yle.fi/radio1/tiede/nuntii_latini/

Pekka K

edit: You can listen Nuntii Latinii here:

http://areena.yle.fi/haku//uusimmat/hakusana/nuntii

Offline SC

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2011, 03:32:19 am »
Dear Robert,

"I had a Latin master who read us H P Lovecraft stories on Saturday mornings"

Does this mean you know how the declensions for "The Spawn of Yog-Sothoth"?   :evil:

Shawn

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Offline Jochen

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2011, 05:50:20 am »
A note from Germany: Today we have growing difficulties with kids who are not able to speak German fluently!

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2011, 01:57:33 pm »
I didn't mean to suggest that Alföldi used Latin in publications or that he didn't mostly use Englsih.  Only, I am sure he knew the ancient languages.  I suppose that I ought to have used a new paragraph...

Pat

I didn't misread you! I only used your mention of Alföldi to mention a pretty interesting annotated book I have that used to belong to him. As he wrote in German I was actually surprised of his use of written English in a personal book, which I recall confusing me. Sorry if I caused confusion due to my off-topic intervention.

Andrew

Offline byzcoll

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Re: Fluency in Ancient Languages
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2011, 03:11:58 pm »
I have learned Latin for 9 years and ancient Greek for 3 years in High School in Germany. Unfortunately I have forgotten a lot since then, so that insriptions on coins are not a problem, but elaborate literature gives me a hard time. I try to practice translation once in a while.

The funny thing is that I visited a couple of museums in Greece a few year ago. They had tombstones and other inscriptions with translations to the modern Greek language. I couldn't get any sense out of the translations, but I could get some idea of the meaning from reading the original inscriptions. Weird situation.

byzcoll

 

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