Fake Akragas?

[Pietro T]

Hello!
I decide to write my first topix here for a question about this coin.
It should be an Akragas bronce, but I think isn't original.
In your opinions?

11.46 gr - 25 mm

Best regards!
Pietro

[Pietro T]

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[Pietro T]

..

[Meepzorp]

Hi PT,

Why do you suspect that it is fake?

Meepzorp

[Pietro T]

I think it is a cast, or not?
Which type is it? I didn't find similar coins online.

Thanks for your reply

[Din X]

This type seems to exist only in silver as tetradrachm.


Here is an authentic coin of this type. (picture in my post)

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2921839


It is very likely a cast fake from a silver tetradrachm, the only way it could be authentic would have been a fouree (fouree = copper core silver plated) but that the surface looks like this and all siver is removed is rather impossible for a normal fouree.

[Pietro T]

Thank you very much!
I think you are right... But I found this coin, which seems similar.
Weight is similar too. What do you think?
https://numismatics.org/collection/1905.57.42?lang=it

[Altamura]

... But I found this coin, which seems similar.
Weight is similar too. What do you think? ...

Characteristic for your coin are the spirals below the crab. But this is something you only have on silver coins from Akragas  .

Regards

Altamura

[Pietro T]

Thank you very much!

[Joe Sermarini]

Fake coin report please.

[glebe]

Did I miss something?
Why exactly is this condemned?

Ross G.

[Altamura]

... Why exactly is this condemned? ...

=>

... This type seems to exist only in silver as tetradrachm. ...

=>

... Characteristic for your coin are the spirals below the crab. But this is something you only have on silver coins from Akragas  . ...

Regards

Altamura

[Din X]

Did I miss something?
Why exactly is this condemned?

Ross G.

I always have problems to understand you, because you ask questions which have been already answered and others including me seem to understand the answers.

While I was writing Altamura has already answered, but I do not want to delete so maybe some points written by Altamura will be now repeated in my post.


What we have is fake of a tetradrachm with artificial patina, this type does not exist in bronze!
The coin is vey likely a cast fake, too.

There are bronze coins of Akragas with crab and eagle but they do not have the double spiral on the reverse and more important no legend on the obverse (you can see some letter on the obverse).

What speaks against authenticity:

artificial patina, wrong metal, type doesn´t exist in bronze only in Silver as tetradrachm

What speaks for authenticity

NOOOOOOTHING NOOTHING, bad tourist fake

[glebe]

Fake patina? Looks good to me.
Doesn't exist in copper - you mean you haven't seen one until now.
Bad tourist fake - well, that at least is true - what tourist would buy something like that.

Ross G.

[Din X]

I have not seen so far or I did not notice if Greek bronze and silver coins exist from the same dies?
Same dies used to strike siver and bronze coins.
I thought that they generally make different designs for different nominals/coin types.

The main expert for this coinage is ULLA WESTERMARK, she has made a corpus of all to her known cointypes of Akrages including die studies.

Her book is standard literature for collectors of Akragas, I only have an authentic tetradrachm  and bronze coin of Akragas and so looked into literature and am a little bit familiar with authentic coins from Akragas and fake coins in general and from Akragas.

Of course ULLA WESTERMARK did of course not add amatuer tourist fakes to her corpus.

Me and  Altamura have looked and did not find authentic coins of this type, even if you know that they can not exist you still look to be certain.

Altamura had posted to numismatikforum a link where you can read and download The Coinage of Akragas for free, here is the direct link


The Coinage of Akragas c. 510–406 BC. Part 1: Text and Plates

The Coinage of Akragas c. 510–406 BC. Part 2: Catalogue

http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/resultList.jsf?aq2=%5B%5B%5D%5D&af=%5B%5D&searchType=SIMPLE&sortOrder2=title_sort_asc&query=ulla+westermark+akragas&language=en&aq=%5B%5B%5D%5D&sf=all&aqe=%5B%5D&sortOrder=author_sort_asc&onlyFullText=false&noOfRows=50&dswid=-5509

PS: How to block messages in discussion board of a member?

[glebe]

So Ulla Westermark has seen the coin in question here?

Ross G.

[Din X]

So Ulla Westermark has seen the coin in question here?

Ross G.

If Ulla does not know an Akragas coin typ this type either does not exist or is fake.
The chance that Ulla has missed a coin type is extremely low.

[Joe Sermarini]

Perhaps the core of a fourree that has lost its silvering?

[Pietro T]

Thank you for your reply!
This topic is becoming very interesting.
I will show this coin to an expert for a direct exam and I tell you the response.

Did fourree greek tetradrachms existed?

(Sorry for my bad english)

[Joe Sermarini]

Yes, they existed but they are not common.