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Author Topic: RIC and its prices  (Read 3722 times)

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Vladimir

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RIC and its prices
« on: September 05, 2005, 05:46:26 pm »
I wonder, WHY are they so expensive? It cost probably $1,5-2 to publish a book  and deliver it to the store.. As far as I know author's rights  last  75 years, and after that anyone  can publish your book. Any suggestions?

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2005, 06:06:59 pm »
Numismatic books are generally unpleasantly pricy because they sell in very small quantities, so the entire cost of producing the books has to be spread across a few purchasers.
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Offline esnible

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2005, 06:14:38 pm »
How big are the print runs for a "best seller" like RIC?  Or for more specialized numismatic books? 100 copies?  1000?  10,000?

Offline leetoone

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2005, 05:15:36 pm »
For RIC I am not sure, I will try and find out. However, I know the latest Dekesel work on 17th century numismatic books was a run of 200. I seem to remember that the latest one volume RCV reprint (the red covered one) was a run of 1,000.

Whatever the print runs, I am sure that the publishers of academic numismatic books are not making a fortune. There is more of a profit to be made in the high volume annual catalogues, but RIC.......

I think not. Sometimes I am surprised at how affordable some of the reprints are ............ the recent reprint of CREBM is a good example.

Finally, publishers do have a care for the consumer. Spink reprinted the red volume of RCV partly because they felt the used price was becoming unreasonable once it had been out of print for a while.

Vladimir

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2005, 06:28:14 pm »
I think we are forgetting main word in our discussion. It is "reprints".  They do have already all texts ready. They dont have to pay author a holed penny.  Paper and tints cost the same everywhere.  Meantime, you can get  brand new big webster dictionary in some countries way cheaper than a tiny soft-cover trash-book in the US. So, if lets say ukrainian retailers sell  UK/USA published brand new 1000+ pages  books for $10 or less, after paying shipments, taxes, custom taxes, and still making money on it, how much does it originally cost?
Dont forget that to update a dictionary they need way more work to do and to pay for, than to reprint 80 years old book

Mark Farrell

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2005, 12:26:27 am »
I suspect the key difference between re-printing an 80 yr old book vs. a 1000+ page modern dictionary is means of production, not print quantity.

Once the files are created for a dictionary -- and I guarantee you they are electronic -- there is probably no manual effort whatsoever in generating a print run of 100,000. Printer-ready files that are optimized for specific print equipment are probably generated and sent electronically to enormous printing devices (no more printing presses) that automatically collate, trim, bind, stack, and even pack cartons for shipping.

Also, because this technology exists in most developed countries, it is very unlikely that that there are significant distribution costs involving long-distance shipping. I'd bet that a US dictionary sold in the Ukraine was probably printed in the Ukraine, not in the US and then shipped overseas.

There is nothing in an old numismatic book that exists electronically, ergo it is all manual effort. Each page of text must either be manually re-created into an electronic format, or more likely, an image is captured for each page, the images are assembled into plates, and these are then printed either the old way (ink on a plate) or new way (electronic files to a typesetter). Either way, there is lots and lots of manual effort.

The contents in these old books cannot be compared to the content of a modern book -- the difference in production costs between available electronic files and manual hardcopy are profound.

When it comes to books, it has never been the case that the primary cost factor is royalties to authors -- most make a pittance on their work. It is always, always the costs of production and distribution that have the most impact on the prices we pay.

So, the costs if no author royalties are paid are determined by the cost of pre-production (getting everthing ready to produce), then the actual costs of production (paper, binding, labor, etc.), and finally distribution. I would be stunned if the cost per page to simply prepare an old text were much below $50-100 per page. If I am close, then the cost to simply prepare a 200 page text could reach $20k, which must be split between the production run, of say 500 books. We are at a cost already before printing of $40/copy, minimum. Now add in quality paper, good cloth binding, and we could perhaps hit a cost of 60 cents or so per page, for a production cost of $120/book. Then factor in distribution, say $10 per copy. We are up to a cost of $170 per book for a print run of 500. And then profit gets factored in, as well as eventual returns, damaged copies, etc. (I may be far off my estimates, but this is just late night pondering and I am not a printer, so forgive me if this is your profession).

While I don't like paying big money for reprints of existing numismatic books, I understand that the costs are probably reasonable.

Mark

Vladimir

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2005, 04:30:00 am »
Very profound and convincing reply, I doubt I can dispute with that... Still I want to contact  some printing businesses out of usa.

PS As off-top, once i saw one very interesting book for auction on ebay-- something like "Amusing real-life stories  happened with wild animals and pets" 1615  print...That would be an awesome book for translating and reprinting...The book is not mine... :'(

TRPOT

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2005, 10:12:35 pm »
There are many reasons that a short printing run is more expensive per-unit than a long run (like a dictionary). There are many costs that remain the same no matter how many books are printed. These are things like pre-press work, plates, and make-ready time on the press...and of course, clean up time on the press as well.  A short run means that these costs get distributed over less books. A run of 5000 coin books could never sell as cheaply per-book as a run of 1,000,000 dictionaries.

Plus, the nice glossy coated paper in a book like RCV is a lot more costly than the paper used in dictionaries and paperback novels etc.

Offline rasiel

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2005, 01:52:24 am »
boy those estimates are way, waaay off. the cost for a short run all-text book like ric is in the beighborhood of 2 cents per page. making the book case bound (hard cover) adds about $5. so you're looking at roughly $15 for your typical 500 page ric-like volume. ordering in quantity of about 5,000 pushes a book of this type to probably under $5 per copy. there are other overhead costs to consider but ric is still selling at a seriously sweet profit margin and the reason it can do so is because, well, there's nothing that can touch it in terms of comprehensiveness.

books printed in color are roughly 4x as expensive as their b&w counterparts because there are four separate inks (and four passes) for each page.

ras

tkonnova

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2005, 02:20:44 am »
Im going to ask a silly question then pose a hypothetical...

1) Is it true as you say that anyone can reprint RIC and distribute/sell it as they wish? It isnt copyrighted or anything?
2) If it is true, what would stop someone who wishes to, from scanning all the pages and offering it free online as a pdf document or some other type of e-book?

Offline Roma_Orbis

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2005, 06:25:21 am »
For example, the i-numis web site have put some old articles and books on-line, including the 8 volumes Cohen, which is great already (http://www.inumis.com/books/index.html), but they're almost all from the 19th century, so I guess the problem must be the copyrights. Too bad! I'd love to access the RIC volumes on-line.

Jérôme 8)

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2005, 07:12:58 am »
I would be stunned if the cost per page to simply prepare an old text were much below $50-100 per page.

I'd not be surprised if that's too high by at least a factor of 100, unless you're talking about antique books that are physically fragile.

Book digitizing (both scanning and OCRing) is a fairly evolved business, and a number of companies / organizations are now digitizing books on a grand scale. Companies doing this include Google, CMU (million book project), project Gutenberg, and others. A lot of the manual book scanning is offshored to India since the labor rate is so low, but there are also fully automated book scanning machines capable of scanning around 1,000 pages per hour.

Here's a couple of interesting articles on the subject:

http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,60948,00.html

http://www.honco.net/os/keller.html

Ben

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2005, 09:58:42 am »
RIC is still in copyright, unfortunately. There are bootleg CD's around, but it depends on your conscience. I wish there was an official CD edition, it would be far more convenient than a row of volumes, and if it was done right, it could include the possibility of adding your own notes. They can do it for the Bible, so that yould do it for RIC.
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Offline Follibus Fanaticus

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2005, 03:39:12 am »
Dear Sirs:

Be kind to authors.  You depend on them.  They do not wish to cheat you.  Publishers, however, may wish to do so, and they will cheat authors, if they get the chance.

I’ve been there and done that.  I self-published a book on papal coins.  It was work.  I sought publishers and was told that no, no, body was interested in the topic.

So, I self-published a run of 1,200 copies, plus 50 hardbound copies.  I hear the hard copies are a growing rare book on e-bay.  Twenty-five were sold by CNG; I used 25 to give rewards to friends and institutions that helped me with the book.  These include the National Gallery of Art in Washington, D.C., the Smithsonian Institution, the Library of Congress and the Library at Catholic University at Washington, D.C.  This institution possesses all the history and theology works from the Albani Library, owned by Camerlengo Cardinal Annabile Albani, who issued many Sede Vacante coins.

Annabile was never ordained.  He also collected drawings and engravings, which he sold to the King of England.  This forms the heart of the Royal Collection, featured on PBS from time to time.  Annabile used the money to dower his illegitimate daughter into a very fine marriage.  As a longtime friend of English Kings, he was a tourist attraction for the English in Rome.  For them, a glimpse of the cardinal was just as important, socially, as a viewing of St. Peters.  He died between 1740, his last issue of coin, and 1758, when Cardinal Girolomo Colonna issued a Sede Vacante coinage.

I sold 1,000 copies of the book nobody wanted starting at $25 for a single copy.  The three [European] dealers who bought 100 copies each got it for $12.50 per.  I made lots of money.  Only the Internal Revenue Service knows the real price of production per copy.

Why the difference?  Book publishing is a business, not a hobby.  You godda make money or go to the cleaners.  Writing books is work, not play, so authors feel they are entitled to the fruits of labor.  Read Leo XIII on that in "Rerum Novarum" [1891].

I recently conversed with a "publisher" of coin books.  He offered to take a completed manuscript, edit out all my wit and good humor, publish it, and reward me with 50 copies!
He would inject faux scholarship.  He must deal with some truly gullible coin collectors or people desperate to see their name in print.  I’ve been at this over 35 years, and that was the most stupid offer I’ve ever had.

Work Continues,

Follibus Fanaticus



Follibus Fanaticus

Andrew Courtney

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2006, 04:43:59 pm »
Like everything else, book prices are determined by supply and demand.  I am sure publishers believe they are pricing books at the cost where they believe they will make the most profit.  But I know that personally, I would own several volumes of RIC if they were priced in the $50 per volume range rather than several being over $200.  I am still trying to afford my first volume.

Follibus Fanaticus has the right idea.  Write your own books and self publish.  Then sell for reasonable prices.  With todays technology, it isn't difficult to put together an acceptable publication.  I am more concerned with the content than if it published on nice paper and the cover looks nice.  From what I have read on these boards, there is enough knowledge represented here that several members could write some very useful books.

Andrew

jbaran

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2006, 06:11:30 pm »
I have perused the CD version of RIC that is available.  I honestly dont think I have ever used it to look up a coin.  I have the printed volumes...most of them any way, and it is much faster to use the book.  Yes they are expensive, but they get tons of use.  Take, for example, a new hardcover fiction novel.  You pay 16-20 dollars for it.  Enjoy it once, put it on your shelf for a couple years...when, if you really liked it, you MAY read it again.  I use my RIC every day...what's the better return on investment?

Miguel Diaz

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2006, 06:43:06 pm »
I have perused the CD version of RIC that is available.  I honestly dont think I have ever used it to look up a coin.  I have the printed volumes...most of them any way, and it is much faster to use the book.  Yes they are expensive, but they get tons of use.  Take, for example, a new hardcover fiction novel.  You pay 16-20 dollars for it.  Enjoy it once, put it on your shelf for a couple years...when, if you really liked it, you MAY read it again.  I use my RIC every day...what's the better return on investment?

Does CD version of RIC exist ? Where can I buy it ?

jbaran

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2006, 07:46:06 pm »
It is not an 'official' proiduct.  It's blatant copywrite infringement.  I'm sure the powers that be would not want me offering any advice on how to obtain it...sorry.

Offline leetoone

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2006, 03:00:54 pm »
However, one might want to lobby the copyright holder to ask them to make a CD version available at a reasonable cost.

I, as well, have a copy of the "unofficial" version and also have a full set (and more) of the printed version. I use the printed version most!

But, to have the CD version available on PDAs and the laptop is really useful.

I think that the copyright holder could make reasonable profits from both versions and it would stamp out the illegal trade in pirated copies.

Interested in other people's thoughts.

Lee

Miguel Diaz

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2006, 03:04:24 pm »
Are you sure do you have a CD version ?

I have seen RIC in pdf ... But it's only as images ... We can't make a research by words then ...

If it's in pdf, it's useless if you have already the book ...

Offline leetoone

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2006, 04:09:13 pm »
Yes, it is a pdf file on a CD. I agree this limits some searching flexibility but I wouldn't say it's useless, even if you have the book, for the reasons I already outlined. Also, the publisher may sell more e-copies than they would sell books to people who prefer to pay less for e-versions while maintaining a healthy level of print sales.

Now, a fully searchable e-version - how much would people pay for that?  ???

More than the printed version, between the pdf and the printed version?

Views welcomed ...........

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: RIC and its prices
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2006, 04:52:15 pm »
What I'd be happiest to buy would be a searchable CD version with a facility to add my own notes (you can get Bible CD's which allow that, so why not RIC?), and regular updates from the publisher.
Robert Brenchley

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