Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: How do fouree's fit into your collection?  (Read 15045 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matt Inglima

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 502
  • Quid, me anxius sum?
How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« on: November 06, 2010, 06:25:38 pm »
Through the years of collecting I have added a few plated fouree's to my collection, and I've always wondered about where or how they should fit into my collection.  Fouree's are considered ancient counterfeits but they are still ancient.  I have read some arguments that because their designs closely match official coins fouree's could possibly been official issues intended for use in the provinces or frontiers.  So my question to other members who have these coins in there collection is if they display them along side their official coins or separate from them.

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2010, 07:13:33 pm »
Quote from: S P Q R Coins on November 06, 2010, 06:25:38 pm
Through the years of collecting I have added a few plated fouree's to my collection, and I've always wondered about where or how they should fit into my collection.  Fouree's are considered ancient counterfeits but they are still ancient.  I have read some arguments that because their designs closely match official coins fouree's could possibly been official issues intended for use in the provinces or frontiers.  So my question to other members who have these coins in there collection is if they display them along side their official coins or separate from them.

Alongside the official issues but only if I can find an obverse and reverse that match an official issue!

The arguments about them being "official" are falser than the coins themselves. I am currently preparing a new web-page which will include articles from the leading world experts on forged plated coins. Michael Crawford has, this week, given me permission to republish on my website, in full, his articles on plated coins from the Numismatic Chronicle ("Plated Coins - False Coins") and from his "Roman Republican Coinage". I will be adding to Crawford's articles additional copyright material from Clive Stannard, who is probably the current number 1 expert on ancient minting techniques. His material supports the same conclusions. There will also be substantial extracts from Philip Grierson, William Campbell and others. The evidence from the experts against plated coins ever being official is pretty overwhelming when you read it.

What I would say to those who hold contrary opinions on this list (and there are many), please read the existing literature fully - including the footnotes, and then the references cited in those footnotes, and look at the coin material cited in those references - and if after that you remain satisfied that your contrary opinions remain sound, then try submitting a paper to the Numismatic Chronicle or the American Journal of Numismatics, with proof - rather than opinions - for those viewpoints. Crawford and Stannard offer proof with hard evidence to match, whereas the contrary views tend to cite only opinions and gut-feeling.

Offline Syltorian

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 365
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2010, 07:21:22 pm »
I display them with my coins.

I collect coins for various reasons. Eye appeal is important for some coins, but it's not the only, and not even the most important factor to me. I enjoy them as pieces of history partly because they bear images that relate to this history, but also because the coins themselves are actual part of history. They were struck (or cast), handled, treasured, spent, hoarded, transported, looked at, discarded, lost, etc. by someone who lived in a period I very much adore, in my case largely the Roman Republic.

Whether or not they are official is not that important to me. I also keep coins as near fleur-de-coin as you get with ancient coins near fourrés and worn disks of silver with only the outline and a banker's mark reckognisable. What matters to me is that people of a certain period could have had this sample of coins accessible - hence I store my coins by time period (Punic War, Gracchan, Sullan, Cicero, and so forth).

I'm aware that there are problems with this (people in Pompeii still had coins from the mid-Republic on them when Vesuvius errupted; fourrés might be made much later than the original), but I won't really be able to solve that, so the fourré goes with the official version and the worn coin of the same type which may have been handed around for two centuries.

P.S. Looking forward to the web site, Andrew!

Offline Ted

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 36
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2010, 07:32:48 pm »
I find fourrees to generally be superior to the genuine coin they mimic: better priced and with a more interesting history, they allow me to collect more widely than I would be able to otherwise.

When I have a fourree and the genuine coin it mimics, they are displayed together.

Offline simmurray

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 305
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2010, 08:45:24 pm »
Hi,

I find this post really interesting since I happened upon my first fourree recently: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=67010.0

I was planning to sell this coin but have since had a change of heart; fourrees seem to reflect a different perspective on the ancient world and even today we have the same issues of counterfeit coinage.

My fourree may not be worth much on a monetary level but historically its facinating to me


Steve

TRPOT

  • Guest
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2010, 10:07:15 pm »
I've been giving a lot of thought as to how to organize my coins and I think I'm leaning towards doing it by mint, so for me, fourrees will have their own section because you never really know where they were made, just what they were imitating.

Offline renegade3220

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 828
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2010, 11:14:43 pm »
A little off topic, but I am organizing my coins based off of when I bought them in catagories of coin denomination and/or coin material.  Therefore, right now, I have my finished uncleaned coins in order of when finished, including a fouree, and my silver coins in order of when bought.  This way I can see how my interests and collection progresses with time.

As for finding them all, that is easy.  I have them cataloged in my coin cabinet in an excel spreadsheet that tells me by row and column exactly where to look.  Well, at this point it is not really needed because I only have a few coins, but eventually it will be great.

Offline SRukke

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 3205
  • Go ahead, make my day.
    • My gallery. Started January 2009
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2010, 12:19:08 am »
I have no interest in them. None at all, and as soon as I see the word Fouree I don't even take the time to look at it. Just my own personal feelings. To me it would be like collecting counterfeit money which doesn't appeal to me.

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2010, 04:25:16 am »
I find fourrees to generally be superior to the genuine coin they mimic: better priced and with a more interesting history, they allow me to collect more widely than I would be able to otherwise.


I like fourrees and that's part of the reason. Below is my favourite, the Dream of Sulla denarius of Julius Caesar. If in sound solid silver this would cost thousands: of course it is filed alongside my usual 44BC Julius Caesar coins.

Offline glebe

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1338
    • Glebe Coins
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2010, 04:42:17 am »
There are fourrees and there are fourrees, so let's keep an open mind about them for the moment. Patience, mes braves, and keep your eyes on the (non-British) journals.

The Bloke


Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2010, 04:44:38 am »
A little off topic, but I am organizing my coins based off of when I bought them in catagories of coin denomination and/or coin material.  Therefore, right now, I have my finished uncleaned coins in order of when finished, including a fouree, and my silver coins in order of when bought.  This way I can see how my interests and collection progresses with time.

As for finding them all, that is easy.  I have them cataloged in my coin cabinet in an excel spreadsheet that tells me by row and column exactly where to look.  Well, at this point it is not really needed because I only have a few coins, but eventually it will be great.

Completely on-topic as SPQR was asking about organising a collection! I have used an excel spreadsheet since the 1990s and the format changes gradually year-on-year to reflect new things I wish to show. The one tip I would give is not to merge information in one cell that at a later stage you may wish to separate. The headings of the spreadsheet I use are:

1,2,3 Crawford number, sub-number and letter
4 Crawford "issue name" (the heading for the catalogue entry)
5 Family name
6 Denomination
7,8 Sydenham number and letter
9 Mint
10 Obverse design
11 Reverse design
12 Abbreviated design description e.g. Jupiter/Prow
13 Rarity
14 Weight
15 Price
16 Bought-from
17 Year-bought
18 Unique number, which is a concatenation (using excel) of fields 1,2,3,17,##,4,5,12,6,14, where ## is a unique number for a given year (field 17) starting with 01 on the first coin I buy any year.

Example of field 18:
174-1 #0923 A.CAE Caecilia Janus Prow As 28grams

That basically fully describes the coin (the 23rd which I bought in 2009) in one field: I then copy and past that field as the file name for the picture so that all the details stay with the picture. Then, if I change the attribution of a coin because I mis-read it, the unique number (0923) and weight (28 grams) stay with the coin description allowing me to later identify it with certainty even when the rest of the description changes.

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2010, 04:52:48 am »
There are fourrees and there are fourrees, so let's keep an open mind about them for the moment. Patience, mes braves, and keep your eyes on the (non-British) journals.

The Bloke





In the end, once information is published, it's a free market. Readers can make up their own minds as to what to believe. I listen to those I regard as experts.

[edit: note my later apology for the rather unscientific comments I originally made above regarding certain non-english journals. I've deleted the bulk of the note as a result]

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2010, 05:00:48 am »
Below is an EID MAR that is currently on the market: it needs a positive trace of something (anything!) on the obverse to verify it is ancient. I can't see anything. Perhaps the V of BRVT at the top, but I'm not even sure what way up the obverse is. Lacking a positive fingerprint, however authentic it feels, it might be modern.

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2010, 05:12:37 am »

[deleted comments]

In the end, once information is published, it's a free market. Readers can make up their own minds as to what to believe. I listen to those I regard as experts.

I think I went too far in singling out papers from one country and I apologise to those who read this for giving a general impression when of course there are experts in all countries and good material published in many places, and weaknesses in even the best journals sometimes. Still, just the fact of being published somewhere (anywhere) doesn't automatically give credence to an article. It has to be accepted, cited and quoted by experts in decades to come and that's the real proof. Crawford's "Plated Coins - False Coins" must be one of the most cited papers in ancient numismatics despite being short. His lengthy list of fourrees in RRC which have good style but real differences from genuine coins is an unsung masterpiece of research.

On my website I act as a reviewer publisher and medium for the views of experts - I try not to let my independent personal views get in the way. Still my duties as a reviewer demand that I point out where the real expertise lies and where it does not.

Offline glebe

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1338
    • Glebe Coins
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2010, 05:37:14 am »
Who said journals from *****? - but no more clues.
Anyway, as to the Eid Mar coin it seems that at least one and and possibly two of the known Eid Mar fourrees are struck from the same dies as some of the normal coins, but of course these types were not issues of the official mint at Rome.

Mr X


Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2010, 05:42:15 am »
Who said journals from *****? - but no more clues.
Anyway, as to the Eid Mar coin it seems that at least one and and possibly two of the known Eid Mar fourrees are struck from the same dies as some of the normal coins, but of course these types were not issues of the official mint at Rome.

Mr X



Indeed and in the spirit of olive branches etc. Crawford specifically allows for exceptions in civil war and emergency contexts:

 "It is possible that certain irregular coinages, produced in periods of civil war, may include both pure silver pieces and plated pieces. But one must not argue from coinages such as these to the official coinage of the Roman state"

Thus I have an open mind about certain civil war issues. Each has to be proved on its individual merits of course.

Offline Heliodromus

  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 2176
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2010, 08:12:56 am »
Andrew,
Thanks for that reference to Clive Stannard - I'd never heard of him before (mea culpa), but indeed he appears extrememly knowlegable.

His article on hubbing/punch practices through the ages is very informative:

http://web.me.com/clive.stannard/1/Publications.html

"Evaluating the money supply: were dies reproduced mechanically in antiquity?"

(the article PDF is linked from the image to the right of the title)

Ben

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2010, 08:38:48 am »
Andrew,
Thanks for that reference to Clive Stannard - I'd never heard of him before (mea culpa), but indeed he appears extrememly knowlegable.

His article on hubbing/punch practices through the ages is very informative:

http://web.me.com/clive.stannard/1/Publications.html


Clive Stannard is really smart. On a wide list of issues he has taken a completely different view than the "established opinions" and has been proved right time and again by developments in archaeological finds. He's an archaeologist-numismatist in the oldest tradition, reviewing what comes out of the ground or water and reading the messages sent from antiquity. Lucky for me his focus has been to a great extent the Roman Republic.

Offline mwilson603

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1234
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2010, 10:00:37 am »
The arguments about them being "official" are falser than the coins themselves...............................The evidence from the experts against plated coins ever being official is pretty overwhelming when you read it.

Crawford specifically allows for exceptions in civil war and emergency contexts:

 "It is possible that certain irregular coinages, produced in periods of civil war, may include both pure silver pieces and plated pieces. But one must not argue from coinages such as these to the official coinage of the Roman state"

Well, I guess anyone is allowed to contradict themselves   ;D

regards

Mark

Offline Ted

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 36
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2010, 01:15:16 pm »
Perhaps Andrew means "ever" only in regards to purely Republican issues. (Is there a serious question as to the existence of the one time offical Athenian fourree issue? That issue is beyond my focus, so perhaps there is...)

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2010, 02:28:18 pm »
The arguments about them being "official" are falser than the coins themselves...............................The evidence from the experts against plated coins ever being official is pretty overwhelming when you read it.

Crawford specifically allows for exceptions in civil war and emergency contexts:

 "It is possible that certain irregular coinages, produced in periods of civil war, may include both pure silver pieces and plated pieces. But one must not argue from coinages such as these to the official coinage of the Roman state"

Well, I guess anyone is allowed to contradict themselves   ;D

regards

Mark

There is no contradiction. An "irregular" coinage is by definition not "official". And Crawford says as much - he contrasts "irregular" in his first sentence with "official coinage of the Roman state" in the second sentence. Dies stolen from the mint or misused in the mint are also possible. But a stolen die does not make its product "official". It makes its produce counterfeit, even if the stolen die causes a real (as distinct from perceived) die match. I'm not aware of any plated coin from Rome being the official product of the Roman state.

Ref. the Athenian issue, I was also only referring to Rome. My expertise doesn't extend to Greek I'm afraid. I am aware of the Athenian issue but not its exact circumstances.

Offline mwilson603

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1234
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2010, 02:59:22 pm »
There is no contradiction. An "irregular" coinage is by definition not "official". And Crawford says as much - he contrasts "irregular" in his first sentence with "official coinage of the Roman state" in the second sentence.

OK, thanks for the answer Andrew, however I'm still a little confused.  By irregular are you/Crawford talking about coinage that was produced by the state during civil wars and emergencies?  Because if so why would they not be official?  Otherwise if irregular coinage refers to non-official coinage why bother with the distinction with non-official coins produced during civil wars and emergencies, and those produced at other times?
regards
Mark

Offline Andrew McCabe

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651
    • My website on Roman Republican Coins and Books, with 2000 coins arranged per Crawford
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2010, 03:57:07 pm »
There is no contradiction. An "irregular" coinage is by definition not "official". And Crawford says as much - he contrasts "irregular" in his first sentence with "official coinage of the Roman state" in the second sentence.

OK, thanks for the answer Andrew, however I'm still a little confused.  By irregular are you/Crawford talking about coinage that was produced by the state during civil wars and emergencies?  Because if so why would they not be official?  Otherwise if irregular coinage refers to non-official coinage why bother with the distinction with non-official coins produced during civil wars and emergencies, and those produced at other times?
regards
Mark

No, we are not talking about coinage produce by the state in power at Rome. By irregular we are talking about coin produced by rebel forces fighting against that state and in situations of extreme necessity.  Cornuficius when a rebel at Utica in 42BC may have made plated coin.

I do hope when I finish the web-page I'm working on that those interested will read Crawford's words in full (as well as the words of other contributors). The persistent myth I would like to quell is that die-matches between plated and official coins mean something. They in fact mean nothing at all as forgers dies were often made by mechanical reproduction (from an impression of a coin) so what we get are occasional apparent die matches but not actual die matches, and these are numerically outweighed by far by plated coins that have discrepancies with the real coin which they resemble. RRC lists large numbers of such discrepencies. There is no examples of any coin issue that has systematic volumes of plated coin of regular types, consistently produced, nor anything in the history or literature that makes a good case that Rome ever issued such coin. All there is in fact, is a lot of warm discussion from collectors who would wish their coins to be official ...

Offline mwilson603

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1234
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2010, 04:39:08 pm »
Brilliant, thanks for the answers Andrew, and I look forward to reading more on your site.
regards
Mark

Offline Syltorian

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 365
Re: How do fouree's fit into your collection?
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2010, 06:06:47 pm »
Andrew, you mention above that the use of "dies stolen from the mint or misused in the mint" was possible. This puzzles me, even though saying "is possible" is a far cry from admitting it exists.

Let's take four hypothetical fourrée coins struck under these conditions:

1: The forger acquired stolen official dies, and strikes them in his shed. : unofficial counterfeit.
2: The forger works in the mind; when none one is watching, he misuses the die : unofficial counterfeit and silver saved for the mint-worker.
3. The forger works in the mind; the Quaestor/IIIVir told him so, he misuses the die: unofficial counterfeit with big benefit for the mint officials
4. The forger works in the mind; the Quaestor presented him with a S.C. to misuse the die: officially condoned counterfeit. Authorities will deny any involvement if found out.

Will you be able to look at just any fourré of these four and associate it with the right alternative? I personally don't know how I would distinguish between (2-4); for (1), maybe incompetent strike, wrong reverse, etc, if the thief has no mint-worker background. But even such slips might appear in the regular mint when a hammer-man is tired, borded, still in training, ill or not careful enough. If we find the forger's workshop, complete with the dies and a hard of fourrés, OK. But how would you tell the difference - and if you allow for mint-workers forging coins on their own, why not allow for them being ordered to do so from on high?

As regards the mechanical process: Does the triple imprinting (coin to die at the official striking, die to coin at the mechanical die-making process, die to coin for the counterfeit?) lose specific detail at every transfer (which will not look the same as, say, die-wear or broken dies), so that you can get a counterfeit struck from Die A' that looks immediately different from a coin struck from Die A and reveals the reasons?

Many thanks for a fascinating discussion, and I'm looking greatly forward to the Website!

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity