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Author Topic: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?  (Read 194 times)

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Offline Henry S

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Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« on: June 22, 2022, 10:16:41 am »
Hi, I'm totally new to this so bear with me. I have a Philip II Stater that I'd like to identify and attribute on my own to see if I can find the correct catalog number, mint, era, and other details. Is there some sort of general guide somewhere? So far I have been "brute forcing" it by going through auction archives.

My stater has only a trident beneath the horse and no other identifying marks. I know I could post a photo and someone could tell me the exact Price # but I'd like to try to do it myself from scratch. It seems like there's 2 mints: Pella or Amphipolis, and at least 2 major eras: posthumous or not. Any tips on how to tell which is which? The only thing I've noticed is that Pella mints horses farther apart with the front hooves at different heights while Amphipolis seems to mint the horses closer together and with the front hooves lined in an upward cascade.

Amphipolis also mints more horse reigns it seems but this may be anecdotal. I understand dies wore out quickly and each one was handmade so it may very well be I never find my exact coin in a catalog, but any tips to help me attribute would be great, thank you!

Online Virgil H

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2022, 04:39:19 pm »
I understand your desire to identify it yourself. I try to do the same thing and then sometimes ask for confirmation here depending on how confidant I am. And, over time, you get much better at it. Have you looked at Wildwinds.com yet? That is a great site run by a Forum member and you can look at examples of specific mints, rulers, etc. Also, the American Numismatic Society has great resources and great search tools. One thing I do is use Wildwinds to get into the ballpark. Be sure you also look at the text files associated with the coins as they often have more info than the description. I always use the version with thumbnails and scan the photos to start.

Good luck!

Virgil

Offline Altamura

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2022, 11:21:58 am »
Try PELLA: http://numismatics.org/pella/results
This should contain all types described in Le Rider's book "Le monnayage d’argent et d’or de Philippe II", Paris 1977:

Regards

Altamura

Offline Henry S

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2022, 08:33:41 pm »
Pella was not as useful to me for this Phillip II stater simply bc most of the Le Rider dies lack pictures. However, they did let narrow my search in auctions. After seeing some remarkably similar dies, I think my coin is either a Le Rider 291, 300, or 338.

The closest coin is this https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=801757 a "Le Rider Pella II; cf SNG ANS 268" - Is there an online resource for SNG ANS or Le Rider Pella II?

Also while some sources broadly say that my coin is likely minted at Amiphipolis, I disagree. Based on the position of the horse's front legs I think they're more similar to Pella minted Philip II staters.

If anyone has tips for narrowing my search for the dies/Le Rider # of my coins please feel free to chime!

Thank you

Offline Altamura

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2022, 12:01:39 pm »
Quote from: Henry S on June 24, 2022, 08:33:41 pm
... simply bc most of the Le Rider dies lack pictures. ...
If you want to go down to the level of dies you probably have to look into the book of Le Rider (which is to my knowledge not available online :-\).

Quote from: Henry S on June 24, 2022, 08:33:41 pm
... Is there an online resource for SNG ANS or Le Rider Pella II? ...
The collection of the ANS is to a large extent online too, SNG ANS 268 is this coin: http://numismatics.org/collection/1944.100.12205
But the ANS collection is also one of the sources of PELLA, so this coin ist in PELLA too.

But SNG 268 looks different than your coin and also different than the coin in your acsearch link (where you should be aware that the descriptions of dealers are not always correct :-\).

So again, for dies you probably have to look into the book :).

Quote from: Henry S on June 24, 2022, 08:33:41 pm
... Based on the position of the horse's front legs I think they're more similar to Pella minted Philip II staters. ...
Do you know the exact criteria for the attribution of these coins to one of these mints (I don't)? If not, then this is mere speculation, "more similar" perhaps being a weak argument :-\.

Regards

Altamura

Online Virgil H

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2022, 05:41:41 pm »
I would also peruse Wildwinds, you might get lucky.

Virgil

Offline Henry S

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2022, 07:12:03 pm »
I took a look at wildwinds but its really hard to navigate. You need to know a lot about the coin already to successfully find it.

Offline Henry S

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2022, 07:16:43 pm »
Quote from: Henry S on June 24, 2022, 08:33:41 pm
... simply bc most of the Le Rider dies lack pictures. ...
If you want to go down to the level of dies you probably have to look into the book of Le Rider (which is to my knowledge not available online :-\).

Quote from: Henry S on June 24, 2022, 08:33:41 pm
... Is there an online resource for SNG ANS or Le Rider Pella II? ...
The collection of the ANS is to a large extent online too, SNG ANS 268 is this coin: http://numismatics.org/collection/1944.100.12205
But the ANS collection is also one of the sources of PELLA, so this coin ist in PELLA too.

But SNG 268 looks different than your coin and also different than the coin in your acsearch link (where you should be aware that the descriptions of dealers are not always correct :-\).

So again, for dies you probably have to look into the book :).

Quote from: Henry S on June 24, 2022, 08:33:41 pm
... Based on the position of the horse's front legs I think they're more similar to Pella minted Philip II staters. ...
Do you know the exact criteria for the attribution of these coins to one of these mints (I don't)? If not, then this is mere speculation, "more similar" perhaps being a weak argument :-\.

Regards

Altamura

LOL so the dealer was wrong. Anything about my coin that stands out to you as being genuine or fake? Would George Sears be able to give me a full attribution & dies report?

Offline Anaximander

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2022, 07:21:28 pm »
Going back to an older reference, that stater of Philip II would be Müller #59 (in Les Monnaies d'Alexandre le Grand suivi d'un appendice contenant les monnaies de Philippe II et III, Copenhagen, 1885).  More significantly, perhaps, Müller cites the trident as uniquely a device used on the coinage of Amphipolis.
Chris “Anaximander” Thomsen. Member Since 2019.
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Offline dwarf

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2022, 04:20:50 am »
Well, there was a little bit of research on the coinage of Philip since since 1885

Offline Henry S

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2022, 10:38:46 am »
Going back to an older reference, that stater of Philip II would be Müller #59 (in Les Monnaies d'Alexandre le Grand suivi d'un appendice contenant les monnaies de Philippe II et III, Copenhagen, 1885).  More significantly, perhaps, Müller cites the trident as uniquely a device used on the coinage of Amphipolis.

Is that available anywhere online? Please walk me through how you managed to ID this! Thank you!!!


Offline Anaximander

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2022, 11:33:23 am »
The Ludwig Muller work is available on archive.org and Google Play.  I have it in hardcopy as a reprint in volume 1 of the three volume series The Coinages of Alexander the Great. S. Gardiakis, ed. (Obol International, 1981).  A separate PDF named "Planches et Tables" has the plates and tables where I looked up: Philip II>Amphipolis>staters> and looked for the obverse symbol of a trident.  See plate XXIV.

I have a Philip II stater of Amphipolis, but it is not listed by Muller. To the point raised by a dwarf, in the peanut gallery, there has been some subsequent research.
Chris “Anaximander” Thomsen. Member Since 2019.
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Offline Henry S

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2022, 01:06:53 pm »
The Ludwig Muller work is available on archive.org and Google Play.  I have it in hardcopy as a reprint in volume 1 of the three volume series The Coinages of Alexander the Great. S. Gardiakis, ed. (Obol International, 1981).  A separate PDF named "Planches et Tables" has the plates and tables where I looked up: Philip II>Amphipolis>staters> and looked for the obverse symbol of a trident.  See plate XXIV.

I have a Philip II stater of Amphipolis, but it is not listed by Muller. To the point raised by a dwarf, in the peanut gallery, there has been some subsequent research.

Ok found a copy!! https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_PV01V18gGzYC/page/n3/mode/2up?view=theater

Do you remember what page it was on?!?  I wish I could read French lol. Absolutely thrilling, thank you!

PS. What is the peanut gallery and how do I locate subsequent research? Sorry Im so new to this and need a bit of handholding.

Offline Altamura

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2022, 01:13:06 pm »
Quote from: Henry S on June 27, 2022, 01:06:53 pm
... PS. What is the peanut gallery and how do I locate subsequent research? ...
For the first you could consult a dictionary (as I had to, I guess English is not your mother language), the second is e.g. the book by Le Rider I mentioned above :).

Regards

Altamura

Offline Henry S

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2022, 01:18:45 pm »
Quote from: Henry S on June 27, 2022, 01:06:53 pm
... PS. What is the peanut gallery and how do I locate subsequent research? ...
For the first you could consult a dictionary (as I had to, I guess English is not your mother language), the second is e.g. the book by Le Rider I mentioned above :).

Regards

Altamura

I searched every Pella reference with a trident and couldnt locate it, sadly its pictures arent complete. Trust me Im doing my best to learn, and have learned a lot here.

Offline Henry S

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2022, 01:24:06 pm »
Sadly I dont think its Muller 59. I found some examples from auction sites:

http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=32&lot=3819

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/artful_investments_llc/284/product/macedon__pella_philip_ii_359336_bc_circa_340336328_bc_gold_stater_graded_extremely_fine_by_ngc/1356578/Default.aspx

The tridents are all positioned left of the hooves instead of directly below it like mine are, and the front hooves placement is different. But they are very very similar. Two strand reign, short kendron.

Offline Altamura

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2022, 01:37:26 pm »
Quote from: Henry S on June 27, 2022, 01:18:45 pm
... I searched every Pella reference with a trident and couldnt locate it, sadly its pictures arent complete. Trust me Im doing my best to learn, and have learned a lot here. ...
Perhaps you have to accept that you won't find the solution online, not everything on this globe can be found in the internet ;).

And again (repeatedly): Don't trust identifications too much which you didn't check yourself in the cited reference books (at least I am doing so :-\).

Regards

Altamura

Offline Henry S

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2022, 05:42:24 pm »
Yeah, so far this has gotten me more excited in numismatics than I have been for some time. Might be time to invest in some books.

Offline Henry S

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2022, 05:43:34 pm »
So far it looks authentic right? Not forgery? I compared it to the fake coin pics and nothing stands out to me.

Offline Callimachus

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Re: Tips on Attributing Philip II Staters?
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2022, 07:16:13 pm »

. . . not everything on this globe can be found in the internet ;).

And again (repeatedly): Don't trust identifications too much which you didn't check yourself in the cited reference books (at least I am doing so :-\).

Regards

Altamura

How true ! ! !

 

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