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Author Topic: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!  (Read 94811 times)

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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #100 on: December 17, 2015, 05:58:57 pm »
Quote from: Carausius on December 17, 2015, 05:22:52 pm
I hit a lucky streak today - found 2 Haeberlins, a Ryan (Glendining 1952) and a Sydenham (Ratto).

Nice. New acquisitions or random finds?


Random finds. I've been cataloguing my catalogues in Spring and noting in Spring where I've got a coin. So as I pull down each one of course I flicked through plates to see anything I wasn't previously aware of. A friend coincidentally pointed me toward the aes grave actually in context of saying it would be ok for US import as it is in Sydenham. The first Haeberlin I found was from a group that had previously yielded another Haeberlin a while back. So I went and carefully checked each coin from that group and found another Haeberlin provenance making three in all out of a group of six coins I bought two years ago. The Ryan was an Antony Cistophorus that has long been one of my favorite coins - not EF and so relatively cheap, but very beautiful. It's actually encouraging that I've found provenances for coins I'd previously checked. It means that more will follow.

Offline carthago

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #101 on: December 17, 2015, 10:10:26 pm »
What exciting finds, Andrew!  I looked up the Ryan and it looks quite nice.  Maybe you could post it for us to see what it looks like in the flesh???

I see I have 3 SORS to choose from in Haeberlin and I'm not sure what the other coin is.  Sydenham, well, I'm not sure there either. 

Good for you on finding so many.    I've been on a bit of a provenance dearth of late.  It's not for lack of trying.  I have a full day blocked out (wife willing) at the ANS next month and we're going to change that dry streak!  I've bought a ton of coins this year, most with that old collection look, and by golly, I'm gonna find them!   ;D

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #102 on: December 18, 2015, 12:44:46 am »
Here are the four coins below the fold

Haeberlin 2500 Erato (per Phil Davis in Essays Witschonke). The flan shape aren't identical but from the reverse of the plaster cast picture you can see a lot of excess plaster and I'd assume the obverse (a different cast) also had excess plaster hand finished in a way that shifted the obverse bulge from 3pm (coin) to 2pm (cast). Fidelity of edge shape is a usual hazard with plaster casts as when lifted from the mould some plaster trimming is usually needed. Otherwise identical and same weight (3.82g)

Haeberlin 2190 SORS. Note the matching edge imperfections between 6pm and 8pm. Same weight.

Sydenham 32. The blob obverse 7pm and the dots under the prow are unmistakeable, and same 120 gram weight.

Ryan 1929. This is an easy match from the ding after R.P.C. And everything else. This was from NAC78, no provenance mentioned.

I also picked up the Autronia denarius from the recent RBW sale e364 lot 104 - Lawrence 46 = Hamburger 96 lot 388. This is a really rare coin to find nice and this is one of the best examples despite being only GVF so I put everything onto to it.

These five coins expand my list of classic provenances by a whole big chunk. They aren't so common even in my collection.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #103 on: December 18, 2015, 07:24:54 am »
All great coins, Andrew!  I don't yet have a copy of the Ryan sale - I'll need to keep my eyes open for that one.

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #104 on: December 18, 2015, 09:22:15 am »
Here are the four coins below the fold

Haeberlin 2500 Erato (per Phil Davis in Essays Witschonke). The flan shape aren't identical but from the reverse of the plaster cast picture you can see a lot of excess plaster and I'd assume the obverse (a different cast) also had excess plaster hand finished in a way that shifted the obverse bulge from 3pm (coin) to 2pm (cast). Fidelity of edge shape is a usual hazard with plaster casts as when lifted from the mould some plaster trimming is usually needed. Otherwise identical and same weight (3.82g)

Haeberlin 2190 SORS. Note the matching edge imperfections between 6pm and 8pm. Same weight.

Sydenham 32. The blob obverse 7pm and the dots under the prow are unmistakeable, and same 120 gram weight.

Ryan 1929. This is an easy match from the ding after R.P.C. And everything else. This was from NAC78, no provenance mentioned.

I also picked up the Autronia denarius from the recent RBW sale e364 lot 104 - Lawrence 46 = Hamburger 96 lot 388. This is a really rare coin to find nice and this is one of the best examples despite being only GVF so I put everything onto to it.

These five coins expand my list of classic provenances by a whole big chunk. They aren't so common even in my collection.

Ah, Erato!  I didn't get your shorthand.  Duh! I read the article by Davis online a few weeks ago before I got my Fides book.  Anyway, yes, that looks like the coin.  Well done!

I recognize the Cistophorus and it's so nice to see them with an old collection look.  So many higher grade ones seem to be newer finds and over cleaned.  Mine is and it will never tone so I'm waiting for the chance to get one with your look someday. 

The Ryan sale is interesting to me in that it has 2 fabulous examples of the exceptionally rare Caesar captive denarii 452/4 & 5.  It seems every 20th century auction with a strong RR collection has an Eid Mar (maybe even 2!), but you don't often see one much less both of the Caesar issues.  Haeberlin had both, one of Ryan's came from Haeberlin but the other is much nicer than Haeberlin's.  It was a fabulous sale and I don't have any coins from it.   :'(

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #105 on: December 18, 2015, 11:25:54 am »
The greatest denarius rarity of all - excluding the mythical types such as Laterens Cr.358 - is probably Meta Cr.124/2. I'm not sure there's a meta in any auction sale at all though a couple are in museums - not even in Haeberlin or RBW (full disclosure - I found an example on eBay some fifteen years ago). Is anyone aware of an auction example?

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #106 on: December 19, 2015, 04:28:23 pm »
At the end of a couple of days inventorising what "Spring" catalogues I have:
- I have, at home, originals of 53 catalogues listed by Spring, all with at least some RR material
- within those, I counted 28 provenances with a few coins multiple appearances, so somewhere between 20 and the 25 within the catalogues I own
- I've a bunch in with the bookbinder to add later to this list
- And there are also some old provenance coins I know about but where I don't have the catalogue
- So overall, probably 65 Spring catalogues in my collection and probably around 30 coins in my collection with pre-1970 provenance (Spring, though in theory going to 1980, in practice often stops shortly after the 1970 UNESCO convention date). There's maybe another 70 coins in my collection that I would hope one day to find old provenances for - I'm aware for example that I've undercounted aes grave and dioscuri denarii and fractions, which tend to be difficult to memorize and compare, and there's also an over emphasis on coins bought in the last 3 years of catalogue madness at the expense of older acquisitions. And there's still a zillion FPLs to find and go through even if I've hit most of the best auctions already. So lots still to come. But even 100 coins will still be less than 10% of my collection. However if I add in good modern provenances (NAC, CNG etc) I suspect the number will zoom up to maybe 40%. All the rest of my coins will have been bought retail or from ephemeral online venues. So be it. If I ever actually get to 10% old provenance and 50% good provenances I'll be pretty content.

Today I found two coins in 1960s Mario Ratto fixed price lists: In FPL 3/64:294 my Pompey Varro denarius, a beautiful coin. In FPL 4/68:160 my MP Victoriatus. Onwards and upwards!

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #107 on: January 29, 2016, 10:33:05 am »
I've spent the last couple of evenings working through catalogues, in a house keeping exercise. Didn't find much really new, just a couple:

Platt, 28th June 1923, lot 221:


Leu 17, 3rd May 1977, lot 66, Nicolas collection


Both were surprise finds. I did however find a very great deal of housekeeping that needed to be done - many cases where I'd a provenance from a sales ticket but had not recorded it, or had done so untidily e.g. mentioning the Nicolas collection without lot number or auction date, or not tabbing the physical auction catalogue to show I'd caught the coin, or tabbing the physical catalogue but never entering in my database. The real fun is of course finding provenances. Writing them all down in a proper manner can be tedious..

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #108 on: January 29, 2016, 11:13:41 pm »
The real fun is of course finding provenances. Writing them all down in a proper manner can be tedious..

Call me crazy, but I enjoy writing them down too!  When I print flip and tray tags describing a lost provenance, I feel a sense of accomplishment and hope that the information will never again be separated from the coin, at least while the coin is in my custody and hopefully while in the custody of the next owner or two.

That's a nice pair you found, Andrew.  The Scarpus, of course, is a scarcer type anyway and the iridescence hints that it's been around a while; but that Platt sale is not a catalogue that I would think to search - so very well done!  The rudder denarius looks like a lovely example, with the characteristic Nicolas toning.

I have several coins that I'm particularly focused on, because I'm certain their provenances are waiting to be discovered.  I just need to buy more catalogues until I find them!   ;D

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provenance question: Proschowksy Grandt Nielsen
« Reply #109 on: January 30, 2016, 06:10:37 am »
I’m trying to recover some provenance information from a ticket. This is what I have

Peus sale 355, 27th April 1998 lot 197 (this is the easy bit)
By HC 6/94 Jinn Grandt Nielsen
Ex Paul Proschowsky
Ex NF 9/10 57 nr.9

Might the last line on the ticket refer to a sale on 9 Oct 1957? Or 10th Sept 1957? Or something else? Anyone heard of these names? The ticket is in English.

This is the coin: (nice!)


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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #110 on: January 30, 2016, 06:18:40 am »
Quote from: Carausius on January 29, 2016, 11:13:41 pm
The real fun is of course finding provenances. Writing them all down in a proper manner can be tedious..

Call me crazy, but I enjoy writing them down too!  When I print flip and tray tags describing a lost provenance, I feel a sense of accomplishment and hope that the information will never again be separated from the coin, at least while the coin is in my custody and hopefully while in the custody of the next owner or two.

That's a nice pair you found, Andrew.  The Scarpus, of course, is a scarcer type anyway and the iridescence hints that it's been around a while; but that Platt sale is not a catalogue that I would think to search - so very well done!  The rudder denarius looks like a lovely example, with the characteristic Nicolas toning.

I have several coins that I'm particularly focused on, because I'm certain their provenances are waiting to be discovered.  I just need to buy more catalogues until I find them!   ;D

An issue I have is that I don't yet have tickets. Of course I have an electronic database, but if you pick up the coin it's not obvious whether it's been provenanced or not, and if I mark a coin in a catalogue it's not obvious whether it's been marked in the database or not, and evidently if i find a coin I want to mark it immediately. The answer is to bridge these with paper tickets, such that the paper ticket confirms that both the database and the printed catalogue are appropriately marked. I thought to make very paper simple tickets with just Crawford number, simple description ("Annia denarius", "Victory triens"), the provenance info, and the unique code I assign to each coin. However I want to settle on a definitive name for my collection so I can have appropriate ticket blanks printed, and I've been mulling over a variety. Does anyone know any firm that prints customised ticket blanks? A further issue, which is more an affluenza problem - an overabundance of riches - is that I've very many coins privately purchased from RBW; in my database these are marked "RBW duplicates" but I also have masses of unsorted RBW tickets, very many of which include important provenance information, waiting discovery. And I've barely touched my own resources of catalogues in terms of going through them absolutely systematically coin by coin; sure, I'll not have missed a beautiful toned Pompey in my collection, but what about a marginal random L. Julius Bursio that comes from a thousand seemingly identical dies? And all those catalogue scans on my PC, and online sites such as Heidelberg university. It's akin to eating an elephant. There's such a wealth of provenance information just hidden in corners of my own home that hasn't yet been properly explored.

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Re: provenance question: Proschowksy Grandt Nielsen
« Reply #111 on: January 30, 2016, 06:49:42 am »
I’m trying to recover some provenance information from a ticket. This is what I have

Peus sale 355, 27th April 1998 lot 197 (this is the easy bit)
By HC 6/94 Jinn Grandt Nielsen
Ex Paul Proschowsky
Ex NF 9/10 57 nr.9

Might the last line on the ticket refer to a sale on 9 Oct 1957? Or 10th Sept 1957? Or something else? Anyone heard of these names? The ticket is in English.

Google tells me that Grandt Nielsen is a numismatist, who was active in the 1980s-1990s

Grandt-Nielsen, Finn: Mikel Lunge giør Sedler for andres Punge. Lokale danske pengesedler 1807-16. I: Festskrift til Jørgen Sømod, København 1984 side 69-81
Grandt-Nielsen, Finn: Danske Billetter - Nødpengesedler 1807-16, København (Dansk Numismatisk Forening) 1993 - forside

He probably also traded coins privately, no use for provenance. The "Paul Proschowsky NF 9/10 57 nr.9" may help.

More info (google): Paul Proschowsky was also Danish, and was head of the Dansk Numismatisk Forening from 1955 to 1965. So we are pretty safe in assuming NF 9/10 57 nr.9 refers to a sale (which?) in 1957.

More: Dansk Numismatisk Forening is actually a coin seller. So "NF" probably refers to one of their sales. Ted Buttrey will confirm Monday, but I think I've probably cracked it - It's "Dansk Numismatisk Forening sale 9th October 1957 lot 9".

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #112 on: January 30, 2016, 04:14:02 pm »
The answer is to bridge these with paper tickets, such that the paper ticket confirms that both the database and the printed catalogue are appropriately marked. I thought to make very paper simple tickets with just Crawford number, simple description ("Annia denarius", "Victory triens"), the provenance info, and the unique code I assign to each coin. However I want to settle on a definitive name for my collection so I can have appropriate ticket blanks printed, and I've been mulling over a variety. Does anyone know any firm that prints customised ticket blanks?

I assume you mean tickets for your Abafil trays.  I don’t personalize my tickets, but many of the dealers that we buy coins from, including Forum, have personalized tickets and I’m sure they could direct you to their source.  Those personalized tickets will need to be small enough to fit into the smallest-opening trays you use (likely 1x1 inch for denarius-sized trays).  That's not an issue if the personal logo or other motif is very small and limited to the margin; otherwise, on a small ticket, the logo/motif may use up valuable real estate which might be needed for a lengthy provenance.  Did you plan to hand-write your tickets or print them from your computer?  Unless you've got a remarkably steady hand, I recommend the latter.  The information you’ve indicated that you plan to include should be sufficient – it’s about what I include on my tray tickets – and it’s a good failsafe for an electronic catastrophe.  I like to print the information I could not easily recover in the event of a computer failure.  So, besides very basic ID information and a few standard reference numbers, I include my “collection number” (which matches my electronic records), any provenance information and the price I paid for the coin (which I put in alphabetic code).  Even with this limited amount of information, I must print my tickets two-sided and in tiny font that I will likely need a magnifier to read in 15-20 years!

As for the name of your collection, I say this: you are generally well-known by name among fellow-collectors of Roman Republican coins; you have an internet presence in your own name; you’ve published scholarly articles and edited books in your own name; and in several venues, including Forum, you’ve sold coins identified as ex Andrew McCabe Collection.  In short, “Andrew McCabe” is your numismatic brand.  Unless you have extenuating concerns about privacy, safety or taxes, why re-brand your collection with any other name?  Absent those extenuating concerns, I would strongly suggest the “Andrew McCabe Collection.”

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #113 on: January 31, 2016, 06:58:38 am »
Quote from: Carausius on January 30, 2016, 04:14:02 pm
The answer is to bridge these with paper tickets, such that the paper ticket confirms that both the database and the printed catalogue are appropriately marked. I thought to make very paper simple tickets with just Crawford number, simple description ("Annia denarius", "Victory triens"), the provenance info, and the unique code I assign to each coin. However I want to settle on a definitive name for my collection so I can have appropriate ticket blanks printed, and I've been mulling over a variety. Does anyone know any firm that prints customised ticket blanks?

I assume you mean tickets for your Abafil trays.  I don’t personalize my tickets, but many of the dealers that we buy coins from, including Forum, have personalized tickets and I’m sure they could direct you to their source.  Those personalized tickets will need to be small enough to fit into the smallest-opening trays you use (likely 1x1 inch for denarius-sized trays).  That's not an issue if the personal logo or other motif is very small and limited to the margin; otherwise, on a small ticket, the logo/motif may use up valuable real estate which might be needed for a lengthy provenance.  Did you plan to hand-write your tickets or print them from your computer?  Unless you've got a remarkably steady hand, I recommend the latter.  The information you’ve indicated that you plan to include should be sufficient – it’s about what I include on my tray tickets – and it’s a good failsafe for an electronic catastrophe.  I like to print the information I could not easily recover in the event of a computer failure.  So, besides very basic ID information and a few standard reference numbers, I include my “collection number” (which matches my electronic records), any provenance information and the price I paid for the coin (which I put in alphabetic code).  Even with this limited amount of information, I must print my tickets two-sided and in tiny font that I will likely need a magnifier to read in 15-20 years!

As for the name of your collection, I say this: you are generally well-known by name among fellow-collectors of Roman Republican coins; you have an internet presence in your own name; you’ve published scholarly articles and edited books in your own name; and in several venues, including Forum, you’ve sold coins identified as ex Andrew McCabe Collection.  In short, “Andrew McCabe” is your numismatic brand.  Unless you have extenuating concerns about privacy, safety or taxes, why re-brand your collection with any other name?  Absent those extenuating concerns, I would strongly suggest the “Andrew McCabe Collection.”


Because I integrate bronzes with silver, my minimum tray opening is 40mm or so, so I can do quite large tickets. I plan to hand write because I want sturdy tactile card tickets which would be unsuitable for printing. I do plan to include my collector number.

I'm not in favour of Andrew McCabe collection simply because I've been rotating through duplicates for years, all of which are from my collection. The end result of decades of sifting and upgrading has to be a differently name group of coins. RBW didn't distinguish, as a result the "RBW" cachet has lost some value, whereas the NAC 61 coins remain very special. I learnt a lot from RBW and his sales, and one point is to distinguish the main sale from the duplicates very clearly. I have a number of names in mind. "Ahala". "Marius" (my favourite Roman). "Standard". "Canonical". "Principal Coins of the Roman Republic". But I could be persuaded to add my name to a modifier.

On RBW, he had marvellous provenances in NAC 61/63, but the provenances he missed defy belief. One is my bull snake and corn-ear quadrans.

[see third pic below post]

Aside from Vecchi 3 and Fallani collection, I now have:

ex Glendining 19th July 1950 lot 455 Henry Platt Hall coll. purchased by Spink
ex Leo Hamburger 19 Oct.1925 lot 203 Niklovitch coll.

Absurdly, were it not for these terrific provenances, the coin would be a marginal keeper for me. My keeper bronzes are rather nice.

Note the vast number of post-it index tabs in the pic below. I'm single-handedly keeping 3M in business.

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #114 on: January 31, 2016, 12:24:05 pm »
But I could be persuaded to add my name to a modifier.

I do think your name adds "value".  How about something like "The Andrew McCabe Ultimate Collection"  or words to that effect?  It's your legacy, of course.  Just don't make the name so long that it can't fit easily on a collector's ticket!  I don't necessarily agree that RBW's brand has been hurt by his duplicates.  Maybe watered-down some, but collectors have learned to distinguish between the duplicates and the NAC auction coins.  Personally, when I see a mediocre coin identified as ex RBW, I look at it even if below my quality standards, simply because I am attracted to the RBW brand.  

Quote
On RBW, he had marvellous provenances in NAC 61/63, but the provenances he missed defy belief.

I'm surprised he missed that quadrans.  I know he had a copy of Niklovitch, as I just received it from K&F!


Quote
Note the vast number of post-it index tabs in the pic below. I'm single-handedly keeping 3M in business


I hate to tell you this, but I learned yesterday while visiting my book binder that 3-M sticky-notes are not archival safe.  I was dropping-off my collection of CNG catalogues with Goodman Collection coins, to be dismantled and bound in a single volume of just the Goodman pages.  Several months ago, I had used 3-M sticky notes to mark the pages I wanted.  When removing those yesterday, I could feel a light film left on the pages.  My bookbinder told me not to use them in the future as they are not archival save.  Who knew? I had a similar volume made of the CNA, Ltd. sales of the Wetterstrom Collection of Roman Egypt which I picked-up yesterday (picture below) bound in maroon half-cloth with hand-marbled boards and leather spine label with gilt.  The Goodman book will be similarly bound.




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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #115 on: January 31, 2016, 12:31:04 pm »
I'm just going to have to live with the Post-Its risk. These tabs are such a fundamental means of navigating my catalogues and noting which coins I have and haven't that I can live with the risk it might damage the paper. I am careful however to avoid that the clear plastic part of the tabs covers a coin photograph, and in old style one sided plates I stick the tab on the back rather than the pictorial side of each plate.

Nice bindings! I'm expecting a tranche back from my binder any day soon.

I,spent four hours on the tedious part of provenancing today (updating records, and not so many at that). My brain is frazzled. So I'm going to do some fun provenancing (looking for matches) for a while now. The record keeping is really a slow process.

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #116 on: January 31, 2016, 03:56:26 pm »
I'm just catching up to the thread.  I always love seeing Andrew's workspace (or is it a laboratory?).   Definitely passion there.

I'm awaiting my RBW sale lots as they should arrive next week.  I've got a lot of new catalogues to organize and find space for...which doesn't exist today.  I've definitely outgrown my library shelves. 

I keep my provenance info in my database and only print tickets when the ticket I got from my seller doesn't have enough info on it to identify the coin.  I usually will print out the provenance and include it with the coin flip for the next owner, provided the seller is passing on the tag.  I hope they do. 

Once I get my new lots, I'm going to get my a group of books rebound and repaired.  You all know what some of those are. 

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #117 on: January 31, 2016, 04:03:25 pm »
I don't collect bonze, but I did find a set of provenances for a little Semuncia I picked up on a whim at the San Fran show in December.  It came with a Joel Malter NFA ticket from the mid 1970's, but I found it plated in Ars Classica XVII 1934 and Ratto's Martini catalogue in 1930.

Those provenances made an interesting little coin quite a keeper in my book.


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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #118 on: January 31, 2016, 04:30:48 pm »
That's an exceptionally pretty coin and lovely provenances. Should you regret this bronze whim and not wish to keep it, there'll be willing takers.

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #119 on: January 31, 2016, 04:42:55 pm »
Hi,

It also looks much finer in the photograph than it does in the plates. Nice coin.

Regards,

Mauseus

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #120 on: January 31, 2016, 05:54:20 pm »
Quote from: carthago on January 31, 2016, 04:03:25 pm
I don't collect bonze, but I did find a set of provenances for a little Semuncia I picked up on a whim at the San Fran show in December.  

That's an uncommonly nice example of that type. No need to rush into bronzes though, Carthago. There's still plenty of nice quality silver out there.  :evil:

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #121 on: February 02, 2016, 08:13:36 am »
This may be my longest provenance:

Triton 1 (2 Dec.1997) lot 1125 Goodman coll. ex Rollin & Feuardent Paris 1902, cf Cohen pl. LXVI Silia 2 (this coin) Fenelon Farez coll., cf Babelon 9 (this coin), cf Bahrfedlt Nachtraege 3, 1918, pl.IV,118 (this coin), cf RBW 292/3 as unique (this coin cited) via RBW coll. (duplicate)

Note the presence of the words "unique" and "duplicate" in the same provenance! Roberto Russo didn't think this coin to be real, which I mentioned in the RBW collection book, but before actually handling the piece which seems to me perfect as regards style, flan (conical section) and strike though with flan casting flaws that may have unnecessarily concerned him. Bahrfeldt, Cohen and Babelon also handled the coin without doubts. The second known specimen, also in the RBW coll., is a different die pair but same style and flan; as a philosophical point how, in 1800, one would know what was the correct flan and style to make a new piece from new dies on the correct flan, lacking any other specimen to copy?

Offline Carausius

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #122 on: February 02, 2016, 01:56:03 pm »
Great provenance, Andrew!  Was that coin the subject of a previous Forum thread in which we discussed the veracity of Dardell's etchings?

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #123 on: February 02, 2016, 04:04:01 pm »
Quote from: Carausius on February 02, 2016, 01:56:03 pm
Great provenance, Andrew!  Was that coin the subject of a previous Forum thread in which we discussed the veracity of Dardell's etchings?

Yes. I'm doing homework at the moment. Here are a few with three or more good provenances:

========================
NAC78 lot 1913 ex Auctiones 10 (1979) lot 507 ex Munzen Medaillen Basel FPL 215 (Sep.1961) lot 71 (CHF 300) ex Clement Platt, 28 June 1923, lot 221 (57 francs)

Kuenker 262 lot 7872 ex Lanz 88 (23 Nov.1998) lot 842 as unpublished with R.R.P.C. legend [just a pair of provenances, but an interesting numismatic note that was left off the more recent sale!]

Triton XI (7 Jan 2008) lot 616 ex CNG50 (23 Jun.1999) lot 1351 ex Schulman 243 (June 1966) lot 1501 ex Adolph Cahn 80 (27 Feb 1933) lot 548

NAC78 (26 May 2014) lot 497 ex Munzen Medaillen Basel FPL 385 (1977) lot 37 ex Santamaria Feb.1958 lot 739 Brunacci coll.

NAC63 (17 May 2012) lot 469 RBW coll. ex CNG43 (24 Sep.1997) lot 1767 ex Hess Leu 3 (27 Mar.1956) lot 349

Mario Ratto FPL 1964 lot 294 ex Giuseppe De Falco FPL Dec. 1960 lot 243 @38000 Lire via Naville 13 (22 Feb.2015) lot 138

NAC78 (26 May 2014) lot 454 JD coll. ex Auctiones 10 (1979) lot 403 ex Munzen Medaillen Basel FPL 189 (April 1959) lot 41

Triton XVII (6 Jan.2014) lot 536 ex Archer M. Huntington Collection, ANS 1001.1.10566 via The Hispanic Society of America 1955

Kuenker 262 (2015) lot 7661 ex Lanz 88 (23 Nov.1998) lot 226, Leo Benz coll. ex Munzen Medaillen Basel 52 (June 1975) lot 371

CNG e237 (21 Jul.2010) lot 237 = Alföldi 1974 type XIX, pl.CXLI,37 (this coin) Professor L.Fontana coll. [a book-plated coin is always nice]

NAC78 lot 1778 ex Lanz 88 (23 Nov.1988) lot 154 Leo Benz coll. ex Rodolpho Ratto FPL 1933-XI lot 236

CNG93 (22 May 2013) lot 1079 ex NAC61 (5 Oct.2011) lot 729 = RBW734 ex Sternberg 26 (16 Nov.1992) lot 237

Triton 1 (2 Dec.1997) lot 998 Goodman coll. with his ticket (acquired Spanish collection 1986)

NAC78 lot 544 ex Astarte XIX (2006) lot 850 ex Ratto FPL 1933-XI lot 135

NAC83 (20 May 2015) lot 256 Student Mentor coll. ex Lanz 44 (16 May 1988) lot 330 ex Mario Ratto FPL Apr.1968 lot 160

Leo Hamburger 19 Oct.1925 lot 229 Niklovitch coll. via V.England 10 Dec.1988 with dated ticket via RBW duplicate

CNG web item 873035 (2010) Professor Fontana coll. ex Ratto FPL 1933-XI lot 1000 ex Baranowsky 25 Feb.1931 lot 1246 Joseph Martini & Valerio Traverso colls. ex Ratto FPL 1927 lot 586 [eye-brow raising that a coin with three good 1920s-1930s provenances sold at retail with the old provenances of course lost, but now recovered]

CNG43 (24 Sep.1997) lot 1328 Goodman coll. ex Morgantina B hoard per CNG notes

Leo Hamburger 19 Oct.1925 lot 203 Niklovitch coll. ex Glendining 19th July 1950 lot 455 Henry Platt Hall coll. purchased by Spink ex Vecchi 3 13th Sept. 1996 lot 78 Fallani coll. via RBW duplicate

Peus 355, 27 Apr.1998 lot 197 ex Grandt-Nielsen ex Ex Paul Proschowsky ex NF 9/10 57 nr.9 (Numismatisk Forening sale 9th October 1957 lot 9)

NAC61 (5 Oct.2011) lot 214 RBW coll. ex C.Hersh ex Platt Hall Glendining July 1950 lot 461 ex Hamburger 96, 1932 lot 273 ex 1923 hoard = Hersh Overstrikes NC 1953 p.53,62d = RBW 199

NAC64 (17 May 2012) lot 907 JD coll ex Vecchi 17 (15 Dec.1999) lot 618 ex Peus 322 (1 Nov.1988) lot 36 with notes (1400 DM)

NAC64 (17 May 2012) lot 885 JD coll. ex Lanz 88 (23 Nov.1998) lot 8 Leo Benz coll. ex Kurpfälzische Münzhandlung (15 Dec.1978) lot 198

Munzen Medaillen 2 (27 Mar.1998) lot 308 ex Mario Ratto 26 Jan.1955 lot 18 Giorgio coll. (again just a pair, but it's for a 14/1 Aes Grave as which was an exciting discovery - it's very rare to provenance aes grave)

===========================
I'm working hard on this each evening at the moment. It's gratifying how far back you can push the average provenance-age with some concentrated work. I've just done a string of CNG coins for which I pushed their average provenance 'date' from 2010 to 2000. That's quite a big pushback given that many coins will have no older provenance than the date I purchased meaning those I do find typically go way back. The above list is typical - full of recent CNG and NAC dates yet mostly provenanced to before 1970. You can see the format I use from the above. A convention I use is that to start with the most recent printed auction or major online sale (such as CNG); minor esales which might go dark or private or retail purchases go at the end prefaced with "via": if they are unverifiable and inconsequential - e.g. a dealer-flip after an auction - they may eventually be left off my sale record. My format aims for zero ambiguity - no shorthand such as "Hess 11, 3, 10, 10" which leaves one entirely unclear whether this was Hess sale 11, March 1910, lot 10, or Hess sale on 11th March 1910, lot 10, or Hess sale 3rd November 1910, lot 10, or Hess sale 11 on 3rd October 1910 or Hess sale 11 on 10th March 1910 or whether all the 1910s should in fact be 2010.

It takes very little ink to spell it out.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Old Auction Catalogue Madness!
« Reply #124 on: February 02, 2016, 06:13:10 pm »
Addendum: I just finished processing my CNG provenances. The typical purchase date remains unchanged - about 2010 average. The average provenance date is 1996 - pushed back 14 years through searches.

Of this sample of 128 CNG or Triton purchases, a mere 12 have a provenance date of 2011 or later (although I've bought many dozens after that date). And I'll work on those 12. I've got proven pre-2011-MOU dates for over 90% of this sample. And I'm barely starting - it can only get better. This emphatically kills the idea that coins on the market are generally the result of recent finds. They are not. My coins have been in collections for much of the last century and I can prove it. I expect a similar pattern once I move onto NAC and other venues.  

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