Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: labeling follis  (Read 2357 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline lv88

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 389
    • Armenian Numismatic Page
labeling follis
« on: July 18, 2004, 08:25:56 pm »
how were the byzantine anonymous follis classed,

i know issues from basil II and constantine VII were class bs but what does this all mean and what of the roman numerals ?

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2004, 08:46:40 pm »
Because the coins were anonymous, collectors and academics classified each known coin style a diffrent letter to identify it. This is because they could not classify them under the ruler as traditionally done in the catalogs.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

yafet_rasnal

  • Guest
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2004, 01:03:54 pm »
the id has been done in this way.
the sequence of the types has been find out checkign the overstruck and indeed something interesting about anonymous follis is that every class is overstruck on the previous one (i mean some pieces of each class).
the coupling of class with emperor has been made comparing the anonymous follis with the coins from salerno dukedom. indeed this dukedom used as flan for their copper coins the anonymous follis so they can know the time of strucking just using the salerno kings.

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2004, 06:34:38 am »
Yafet,

Do you have any examples of the overstrikes from the Salerno Kings?
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

yafet_rasnal

  • Guest
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2004, 12:38:48 pm »
sadly nope, they are really rare and my area was under the Benevento lombard kingdom and not salerno  :(
If i will find any picture of it around i will let you see.

Offline vercingetorix

  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
  • Surrendered at Alesia.Bleah...
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2004, 03:12:36 pm »
Indeed the overstriking habbit made it possible for the scholars to classify the anonymous bronze coinage in a cronological order. Allthough the method has been proved efficient we still can't tell for sure whether every emperor during the XIth c. struck its own coin type or some of them still used older ones durin their rather short reigns.
Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes...

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2004, 06:42:47 pm »
Overstrikes are very important to the Byz collectors to help date the issues without dates.Not just the anyonomous folli but a lot of coins durring  Alexius and beyond.  At this point it is not to figure out  the ruler but the sequence of the issue for coins durring the reign.  
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Offline lv88

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 389
    • Armenian Numismatic Page
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2004, 06:46:32 pm »
so the only way to really collect anonymous folles is to just buy anything (other than obvious issues from lets say john I - romanus III) and hope to get good stuff ?

ps did anyone imitate anonymous folles in large quantities ?

Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2004, 07:27:18 pm »
Hi Iv88 , I need to clarify my last statement. The anonymous follis series are coins that listed no ruler on them. Just the religious figures and statements, they were not identifiable to any ruler until the dates were established by seeing what coins they were over struck on. That gave them the sequence of the coins issues and then they figured out who had them made. The Anonymous follis are really no longer anonymous each one has been attributed to a ruler who minted them.

The point I was making was coins that are identified under Alexius reign ( They have his legend and portrait.) are dated by the coins they are over struck on, in his case we know the sequence his reign ( I have several tetartera that was over struck on K class follis, those are also Alexius just earlier in the reign.) Also tetartera over struck on earlier tetartera of the same ruler.
The overstrike information in addition to hoard finds help specifically date coins.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

corvus

  • Guest
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2004, 08:32:11 am »
Hi  Iv,

I will post my Anonymous collection starting from A1; but you can not but them chronologically like this A1, A2; A3, B; C and etc as scholars do not agree how one or other Anonymous folli can be  tied to one or other ruler. Anyhow those are mine and as you can see I still missing lot of others (like C; E; F; G, H and I plus J; K; L; M and N which are tied to Alexius I), but this is because I'm  looking for best examples (as you can see from pictures below) available...
A1 - John I
A2 - joint reign of Basil II and Constantine VIII; These are often struck on large flans, up to 36 mm. Diameter. D.M. Metcalf has identified the products of several provincial mints within this group. Some of these exhibit errors in the rev. legend, e.g. IUSU for IhSUS, and bASLE  for bASILE some struck on a slightly lighter weight standard of 12.5-13.5 gm (like this one).  
A3 - This group, intermediate in weight between classes A1 and A2, was first identified by D.M.Metcalf. The date of this weight reduction may have been circa 1020, and folles of this standard no doubt remained in issue throughout the sole reign of Constantine VIII. They were succeeded by the anonymous folles class B introduced by Romanus III.
NB! Philip Grierson, in Dumbarton Oaks Catalogue does not recognize A3 as a class separate from A2. He suggests that Class A Folles' target='_blank'>class A2 remained in issue through the reign of Romanus III and into that of Michael IV who he proposes, was responsible for the introduction of class B.

B -  Romanus III or Michale IV

D - This type is often overstruck on folles C class. Dumbarton Oaks Catalogue is suggesting that Class D was introduced by Constantine IX following death of the Empress Zoe in 1050. It is further suggested that the type remained in issue for about of decade, throughout the three succeeding reigns, until finally superseded by Class E under Constantine X, circa 1060.

corvus

  • Guest
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2004, 08:33:19 am »
A2

corvus

  • Guest
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2004, 08:34:42 am »
A3

corvus

  • Guest
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2004, 08:35:38 am »
B

corvus

  • Guest
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2004, 08:36:10 am »
D

Offline lv88

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 389
    • Armenian Numismatic Page
Re:labeling follis
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2004, 10:51:05 am »
thanks a lot still a little confused but pretty much clear.

levon

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity