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Author Topic: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari  (Read 5612 times)

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Offline Paddy

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Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« on: February 21, 2013, 05:11:13 pm »
Hello.

I have been thinking about collecting the well-known "Twelve Caesars". Now, if I tried collecting all twelve Ar Denarii, it would be rather costly. Especially Caligula and Cladius would cost more than a handful of pretty pennies.  However, after learning more and looking, looking and then looking some more at coins on the net, I have found that some of the copper As from the same time period are pretty affordable and in - from what my untrained eyes tell me - good shape. I gather that they are also a little bit bigger than Ar Denarii.

I guess I am looking for some feedback on this idea.

Then on a sidenote I have a more specific question:

What exactly is a "die match"?

Thanks in advance,

Patrik

Offline areich

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2013, 05:59:25 pm »
Asses are a lot bigger than denarii and sestertii bigger still. Of course a nice Nero sestertius is really expensive as well. Collecting the 12 Caesars is hardly original but that shouldn't stop you, it's as good a field as any.

A die match means a coin struck from the same dies as another (a double die match). If just one die is the same, it can be a reverse or obverse die match. The smaller an emission, the larger the chance of finding die matches. It's very common to find die matches with Provincial coins, rare with imperial ones. It can even be a cause for suspicion, especially if the flan shapes and other characteristics match as well, which means you may have 'twins', coins made from the same casting mould.
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2013, 07:25:46 pm »
A 12 Caesar's collection is a good challenge to start with.  I don't have them all in denarii but I do have them all.  I have a Tetradrachm of Otho, an As of Galba and Caligula the rest are denarii.

Here's what it would look like.  The sizes are not to scale.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-92493

Offline Paddy

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2013, 08:23:53 pm »
The problem with collecting is not so much what one chooses to focus on, but what one then decides not to collect. In my defence I should mentioned that I started collecting about a month ago, and had no prior knowledge of coin collecting at all.

I have bought one coin though, and it happens to be the same type of Augustus Ar. Denari that you have in your collection, Jay. It cost me a pretty penny, but to me it's worth every euro. Augustus is, after all, Augustus. Because he towers above the rest, I wanted this coin regardless of what direction I decide to go in. I shall post it in my gallery once it arrives.

There's one thing I don't understand. Considering the length of the reign of Augustus, how come his coins are so expensive? Is there such a high demand for his coins?

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2013, 08:45:44 pm »
Bingo!  You hit the nail on the head.  You'll find there are many coins that are actually quite common, like the Tiberius Tribute Penny that commands a premium simply because of the so-called Biblical reference. You'll also find other big name Emperors commanding higher prices because of the name recognition...Julius Caesar comes to mind... 

Looking forward to seeing your coin!

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2013, 09:05:07 pm »
My collection of 1st Century Emperors in bronze naturally encompasses 11 of the 12 Caesars.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1978&page=1&sort=na

So as to complete the 12 Caesars sub-collection, I've been looking for a portrait of Julius Caesar in bronze.  Problem is, I don't believe there are any lifetime portraits of him in bronze.  So I believe my most reasonable alternative is one of the Divus Julius Caesar / Octavian bronzes struck after his assination.




Offline carthago

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2013, 09:39:02 pm »
Paddy

The 12 Caesars is a great idea and you've already got a good start (though we need a picture of the Augustus!).

When I first started getting interested in ancients, I was convinced that I was going to collect Sesterti.  I own 2 today.  As I learned more about the bronzes I worried about my ability to buy coins without serious problems.  There are so many doctored bronzes out there that have been tooled, smoothed, repatinated, have bronze disease, etc that I think the learning curve is too much and dangerous.  For that reason mostly, I moved toward silver.  Not that you can't buy problem coins in silver (oh, and I have!!), but I think it is safer especially for a newbie.

That's my advice on metals.

Chris

Offline Mat

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2013, 09:43:39 pm »
Quote from: carthago on February 21, 2013, 09:39:02 pm
Paddy

The 12 Caesars is a great idea and you've already got a good start (though we need a picture of the Augustus!).

When I first started getting interested in ancients, I was convinced that I was going to collect Sesterti.  I own 2 today.  As I learned more about the bronzes I worried about my ability to buy coins without serious problems.  There are so many doctored bronzes out there that have been tooled, smoothed, repatinated, have bronze disease, etc that I think the learning curve is too much and dangerous.  For that reason mostly, I moved toward silver.  Not that you can't buy problem coins in silver (oh, and I have!!), but I think it is safer especially for a newbie.

That's my advice on metals.

Chris


When I got into ancients I never had an itch to do a 12 caesars set. I slowly added a few here and there mainly due to finding deals. But ever since I bought a silver galba I have the itch to complete it. I just need Otho, Vitellius, & Caligula. I will probably do a bronze for caligula but the other 2 will be silvers. Its just waiting for the bargain to surface. I can wait  when it comes to this part of my collection :)
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2013, 05:10:38 am »
My collection of 1st Century Emperors in bronze naturally encompasses 11 of the 12 Caesars.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1978&page=1&sort=na

So as to complete the 12 Caesars sub-collection, I've been looking for a portrait of Julius Caesar in bronze.  Problem is, I don't believe there are any lifetime portraits of him in bronze.  So I believe my most reasonable alternative is one of the Divus Julius Caesar / Octavian bronzes struck after his assination.

Both Corinth and Lampsacus issued life-time portrait bronzes of Julius Caesar.

Corinth, 45-44BC



Lampsacus, 45BC



These types are scarce, but not so rare, and easily enough obtainable if one waits a few months, and often cheaper than the Divos Ivlius with Octavian types

Offline PeterD

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2013, 05:46:57 am »
I would like to point out that Julius Caesar was the only one of the 12 Caesars NOT to be an emperor.
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2013, 08:05:20 am »
I would like to point out that Julius Caesar was the only one of the 12 Caesars NOT to be an emperor.

None of the 12 caesars were strictly emperors, and Julius Caesar was no less an emperor than the others; there were just various changes in titles. Caesar was Dictator for life and Imperator. Augustus was just a name given by the senate for Augustus (albeit an important one) and he was likely called "Caesar" by most. His Imperator title was taken as part of his name rather than a title; he was also Princeps Senatus. By osmosis, as it were subsequent emperors adopted the names of both Caesar and Augustus, but who is to say at what point those names really became synonomous with "emperor", or perhaps it was the Imperator title that morphed into "emperor", a title which Julius Caesar held in abundance (several times). In all this period, both under JC and later emperors, the fiction was maintained of the Republic continuing, with the Senate, Consuls, tribunes and other magistrates; the Augustan settlement of January 27BC was less the establishment of an imperial dictatorship of Julius Caesar, than the restoration of the Republic. Augustus was really less an emperor than Julius Caesar was, yet later emperors adopted the Augustan model. But wasn't Sulla also as much an emperor as them all, and exactly alike with Augustus, renounced his dictatorial powers and assumed the modest first citizen role that Augustus held for so many years.

Thus, if Suetonius, and the Romans in general, regarded JC as much an emperor as all the later adopters of the title "Caesar", then, really he was an emperor. De facto as much an emperor as any other, and De Jure, no less an emperor than any others, under the fictional Republic.

I hope this sparks some debate (especially by those who know the historical pedantries better than me!)

Offline carthago

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2013, 08:33:40 am »
Julius Caesar was no less an emperor than the others; there were just various changes in titles. Caesar was Dictator for life and Imperator.

I am not enough of a historian to debate this on a scholarly level, but before I got into ancients and particularly Imperatorial issues, I had always considered as a layperson that Caesar was the first Emperor.  I've always wrestled with the defacto position by historians that Augustus was the first emperor.  Titles aside, Caesar acted like an Emperor, had titles like an Emperor, disregarded the consitutional law like an Emperor, and died like most Roman Emperors.  To me, that's an Emperor.  Unlike Sulla before, Caeser did not turn in his power and I don't think he had any intention of it as Dictator for Life. 

In my mind, he was the first Emperor since his seizing of power was the point in time which the Republic died and the Monarchy was reestablished in Rome for good.

Offline PeterD

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2013, 09:37:48 am »
Yes, I thought that would bring out some contrary views. It's a matter of opinion of course, but most writers in modern times seem to consider Augustus the first emperor -perhaps in order to do away with the messy bit between JC and Augustus. After all, the first volume of Roman Imperial Coins starts with Augustus.
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Offline Mark Z

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2013, 10:31:03 am »
Paddy,

One of the "downers" of collecting (at least to me) is actually finishing a collection. Where do you go from there?

How about a 12 Caesars collection in bronze AND a 12 Caesars collection in silver?

One of the joys of collecting is the "thrill of the chase." That should keep you busy for a while :)

Regards,
mz

Offline renegade3220

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2013, 10:47:49 am »
I would love the twelve causes in silver. There is just something about silver. Now, for me to do this my plan is to just pilfer them from Lucas H who has two sets!!!  Lets see if Lucas is reading this thread ;)

Offline Sosius

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2013, 10:59:59 am »
Nice bronzes, cmcdon0923 and Mat!  The biggest drawback to my emperors collection is all those silvers messing up the image.  Maybe I need to focus on some big bronzes of the some of the rarer emperors, like Otho and Vitellius...

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=85974.0

Or wait, maybe its the bronzes messing with the silvers.  Now I guess I have to do both...  See you guys in a few years after I sell the house, cars, and/or kids to get a full set of bronze, silver and gold from each emperor.  

Collecting is never really done, is it?

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Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2013, 11:21:41 am »
Quote
Both Corinth and Lampsacus issued life-time portrait bronzes of Julius Caesar.

Thanks Andrew.  I've just been focused on the Octavian / Divo Juilius pieces and I overlooked those types.  Certainly, a lifetime issue would be ideal.

Offline Paddy

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2013, 03:56:09 pm »
Ok. My Augustus is up there: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-93117
I think I am going to make a short youtube clip of the coins I have and how I store them. Perhaps the way I store them is less than optimal.

Patrik

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2013, 04:18:34 pm »
There really isn't much to it. If you use plastic flips, use the PVC-free ones, paper should be acid free and coins should be stored dry. The latter is more important for bronze coins.
Andreas Reich

Offline carthago

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2013, 06:31:18 pm »

Offline Matt Inglima

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2013, 08:20:17 pm »
Paddy,

One of the "downers" of collecting (at least to me) is actually finishing a collection. Where do you go from there?

How about a 12 Caesars collection in bronze AND a 12 Caesars collection in silver?

One of the joys of collecting is the "thrill of the chase." That should keep you busy for a while :)

Regards,
mz

Another 12 Caesars themed collection could be assembling coins issued in the name of (or by) each of the 12 but does not carry a portrait of them.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2013, 08:31:36 pm »
Or restitution issues....

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2013, 06:23:40 pm »

Another 12 Caesars themed collection could be assembling coins issued in the name of (or by) each of the 12 but does not carry a portrait of them.

Is this possible?  I have seen most of them but do not recall Otho.  Do they  exist?

Offline Matt Inglima

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Re: Collecting the Twelve Caesars - As vs Denari
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2013, 09:41:17 pm »

Another 12 Caesars themed collection could be assembling coins issued in the name of (or by) each of the 12 but does not carry a portrait of them.

Is this possible?  I have seen most of them but do not recall Otho.  Do they  exist?

Hmm... now that you mention it, I don't think they do, even his provincial issues (which are few) have portraits.  I guess if one wanted to build this collection they would have to put an asterisk between Vitellius and Vespasian.


 

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