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Author Topic: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.  (Read 12923 times)

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Offline Paddy

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Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« on: February 10, 2013, 03:39:29 pm »
Hello.

I spend a lot of time looking at coins, especially Ar Denarii. Because every coins has its own unique history, there is of course difference in tone and coloring. I understand this, but what strikes me as a newcomer is that there is such a large difference between different coins in shine. Some coins look almost new and as if they had been polished. When discussing denarii, tone and coloring is often mentioned, but what about shine?

Posting three coins as reference points, they all have different tones and shine.

To be specific, I have two questions:

1) A good shine is attractive, but can there be too much of it?

2) If some of the coins we see on the market are indeed polished, is it someone can do at home as an amateur with the less shiny coins? If so, how and with what?

Offline Paddy

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2013, 04:41:18 pm »
Here's another example of shine, as a newcomer it's very seductive:


Offline areich

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2013, 04:52:15 pm »
It's also a matter of photography and lighting. Please DON'T polish your coins! Very shiny coins are mostly overcleaned, sometimes new finds that are processed in bulk, sometimes by people who don't know better. There are enough overcleaned coins around already. Sometimes silver can be rough but there is nothing you can do about it to make it better and a lot you can do to make it worse.

The Hadrian just wasn't photographed very well, you need to diffuse the light to photograph silver. It's hard to get a bright picture of silver without these blow-outs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blown-out_highlights.jpg
Andreas Reich

Offline Paddy

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2013, 05:01:20 pm »
It's also a matter of photography and lighting. Please DON'T polish your coins! Very shiny coins are mostly overcleaned, sometimes new finds that are processed in bulk, sometimes by people who don't know better. There are enough overcleaned coins around already. Sometimes silver can be rough but there is nothing you can do about it to make it better and a lot you can do to make it worse.

The Hadrian just wasn't photographed very well, you need to diffuse the light to photograph silver. It's hard to get a bright picture of silver without these blow-outs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blown-out_highlights.jpg

Is it possible for someone to post photos of overcleaned coins in this thread?  To see what it looks like would be very informative. Thanks for the answer, I will definitely not polish my coins if it's likely that it will make them worse.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2013, 11:07:49 pm »
Over cleaned coins just look like shiny silver coins.  Over time they will naturally get a darker patina.  Putting a silver coin in a manila envelope will eventually give it a very attractive dark tone.  This is seen particularly with old collection coins.  They can also take on a rainbow tone. Here is one of mine.  An Otho Tetradrachm that is a lovely dark pewter color.  It's even nicer in hand.


https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-53842

Offline Lucas H

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 11:07:32 am »
Andreas hit it pretty spot on.  First, there is the lighting.  The same coin came come across different in different lighting.  Next, there is oven cleaning making denarii really shiny.  I hesitate to say "most," but many collectors preferred toned coins.  It makes you think of the coin coming from an older collection.  You might see dealers describing a toned coin as "old cabinet toning" for that reason (whether or not it is from an old collection). 

This Vespasain is way too shiny:  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-69673  (my photography is very poor FYI). 
This Titus is way too shiny.  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-89117 
This Titus is starting to develop a tone:  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-66352
This Titus is darkly toned (but the coin itself is of a lower quality that the others, so it's not strictly apples to apples):  https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-66230

The shiny coins may be more recent finds that were chemically cleaned.  The toned coins may have generally have been around for a while.  Please, please, please, don't clean any denarii you buy to make them shiny.  That would be a bad plan in my ever so humble opinion.  Cleaning and polishing are also different.  If you were to polish a silver coin, in addition to making it shiny, you could also wear down the details and scratch the surfaces and devices. 


Offline Paddy

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 02:38:09 pm »
Ty all for your reponses. I appreciate it.

Patrik

Offline carthago

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2013, 11:58:52 am »
I think most people who start collecting ancients are used to modern coins which many people prefer to look like new.  I know I did when I started in ancients.  That's changed for me. 

I think many collectors of ancients develop a taste for toning over time and a well toned coin will often bring a significant premium over a similar coin that is blast white silver.   

Learn to love the toning Paddy and you find a path of ancient coin Zen that you didn't realize existed at first.   

Offline PeterD

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2013, 12:06:18 pm »
Personally I dislike so-called cabinet toning. Although some of my silver coins have toned to some degree, I only have one which is deeply toned - that is the first picture below (Capito). It actually looks brighter than it does in hand and is a dark brown colour.

How attractive coins look depends on their surfaces. Many coins have rough surfaces, particularly in the case of later Roman silver coins which are de-based. In this case the copper at the surface has corroded leaving microscopic holes in the silver. Such coins might look 'dirty', or if highly cleaned look slightly duller than full silver coins.

I notice no one has answered the question about how to recognize an over-cleaned coin. To my mind, a coin that has come out of the ground needs to be cleaned until it is -well, clean. I would only consider such a coin over-cleaned if any metal was removed or scratched. If coins, when clean, are made more shiny by using an abrasive rubbing treatment then I would consider that detrimental to the coin. Recognizing if this has been done is not easy, so perhaps nothing to worry about too much.

Silver coins can be made to be more atrractive or become so when the fields are less shiny than the high points. This may be aided by the wear, or lack of it, that happened in circulation. Below, the second coin (Thermus) has a light brown background that highlights the fighting warriors. The third coin (Flavus) has what appears to be the remains of the original corrosion at the edges of the figures, again outlining the figures.

I agree with others. What ever has been done has been done, so leave well alone.
Peter, London

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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2013, 12:56:07 pm »
Personally I dislike so-called cabinet toning. Although some of my silver coins have toned to some degree, I only have one which is deeply toned - that is the first picture below (Capito). It actually looks brighter than it does in hand and is a dark brown colour.
...

I like toning, and I especially like 'old cabinet toning'. A lustrous dark purply black with hints of gold and blue is a wondrous thing. Relatively speaking, all the three coins you show appear bright to me. The fact that I like toning, and you don't, creates a financial arbitrage situation / ability to create value through trade, i.e. we could profitably swap coins, with me sending you my bright coins, and you sending me your dark coins, and we would both feel that we profited!

One thing about toning: it can be removed in minutes; so if you like toned coins, (a) you may get them cheaper from people who appreciate them less, like Peter and (b) if you want to dispose of them, a dealer can always choose to brighten them up by removing the colour. You can't easily switch the other way round. In my mind, collecting toned coins hedges your bets, as they can be sold on to people who love toning and to people who don't.

Offline PeterD

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 05:57:55 pm »
I realised after I put the pictures up that the Capito coin looks as bright as the others. But trust me, to the naked eye it looks a very dark murky brown. That doesn't mean I don't like the coin itself. But out of the hundreds of silver coins I have this is the only one that is so dark (and it came from Forum described as cabinet toned) and I haven't deliberately avoided them or sought out shiny coins. Nor do I go round making coins shiny. The second 2 examples I showed are my preference.
Peter, London

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Offline dougsmit

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2013, 07:34:21 pm »
Almost all ancient coins have been cleaned.  Some were cleaned nicely; some were butchered.   Some have been cleaned and in collections for 500 years so retoning is a factor.  I own a few denarii that have been in my possession for 50 years.  They are darker now than they were in 1963.   I have seen more brightly cleaned coins on the market in the last 20 years so even the scrubbed class of 1993 is starting to tone now.  I prefer gray silver but others may differ. 

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2013, 08:38:55 am »
This is a perfect example of the value of toning:



Untoned, this coin would be nothing: flat areas, low relief, a bad die-break on the forehead. With toning, it's ablaze in colour and interest. Collectors sometimes think that a toned coin would look even better shiny, or think that a shiny coin would look worse if coloured, but there's rarely before and after photos to check the assertion. I think the beauty of this otherwise defective coin tells the story.

And here's another example, once again flat areas and weaknesses nicely disguised as if with make-up by some wonderful toning:

[BROKEN IMAGE LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

And another, perhaps not so dramatically improved, but clearly better toned than untoned:

[BROKEN IMAGE LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

These three are new acquisition by me; I specially look out for coins that are enhanced by toning, or where there's potential for toning to make a difference over time. As with face make-up, toning can be wonderful in covering up minor blemishes and overall enhancing how a coin looks. But natural toning always seems best.

Everyone is free to love what attracts them personally, and many like shiny coins; I'm just saying that those shiny coins might look even nicer when toned.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2013, 12:30:53 pm »
The question is whether this toning is gorgeous or unnatural?  In either case the coin will be gray in 50 years, I suspect.

Offline carthago

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2013, 04:58:46 pm »
The question is whether this toning is gorgeous or unnatural?  In either case the coin will be gray in 50 years, I suspect.

If it were a Morgan Dollar, I'd be more inclined to go with gorgeous.  To me, on ancients, it doesn't look right to my eyes.  I prefer gray. 

Offline areich

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2013, 05:13:27 pm »
It looks gaudy and I think it's artificial.
Andreas Reich

Offline Nemonater

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2013, 05:30:32 pm »
I think it's gaudy, but I like it.  I much prefer it over shiny.


Offline David Atherton

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2013, 11:09:44 pm »
Is it possible for a coin like that to achieve deep iridescent toning naturally?

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2013, 11:26:05 pm »
Is it possible for a coin like that to achieve deep iridescent toning naturally?

Coins can achieve remarkable tonings. One of the most popular coins in my collection is this double-struck Furia denarius, which has mellowed over time - it was a uniform light-grey when acquired, now it's resplendent in blues, golds and reds.

[BROKEN IMAGE LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

I cannot comment on whether Doug's Antonia denarius reached its state naturally, but as my Furia is pretty typical of many coins in my collection, I assume there must also be outliers. I can comment on factors conducive to toning: mint-lustre surfaces, whether on an EF+ coin or on protected surfaces at devices' edges, seem to spark the best iridescent blues and golds; in contrast, cleaned coins often struggle ever again to achieve a nice toning, because those minty lustrous surfaces get abraded, even if only to a tiny degree (this is a reason I'm wary of cleaning silver - the damage can be irrecoverable). So on Doug's coin I would expect blue toning between palm and arm, and between palm and horses, and around the legs and chariot, and between lettering and head, because these are all protected areas, and that is what we see. The general blue-gold toning to the wider exposed fields in Doug's coin strikes me as odd, but I don't also know whether that's partially an artifact of photography that may have boosted the gold's and blues. So I'm agnostic.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2013, 11:35:58 pm »
Here's a Commodus I bought specifically because of the black toning. As Andrew said without the toning this coin would be dull.  I think the black toning makes it interesting.  Probably only partially cleaned when found in the ground since the black patina is very thick.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-91237

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2013, 11:53:42 pm »
Here's a Commodus I bought specifically because of the black toning. As Andrew said without the toning this coin would be dull.  I think the black toning makes it interesting.  Probably only partially cleaned when found in the ground since the black patina is very thick.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-91237

Yes, the black toning makes for nice contrast.  I prefer gray toned coins and will try to attach a pix of my C Piso L F Frugi, Cr 408/1a.

The British Museum has a lot of RR denarii with dark toning that I like a lot


Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2013, 12:01:16 am »
The British Museum has a lot of RR denarii with dark toning that I like a lot

The BM coins were scanned - not photographed - and in many cases look darker than in real life (but any photo editor can enhance them). Still, it's generally true that BM coins are toned and have never been cleaned: this is a photo I took myself of a couple of old collection BM coins;



The photo combines obverse of BM 508.3.4 and the reverse of BM 508.3.3. BM 508.3.3 is ex Thomas Herbert, 8th Earl of Pembroke collection. Herbert was First Lord of the Admiralty and Lord High Admiral 1690-1692 and was Lord Privy Seal 1692 to 1699. In 1689 to 1690 he was President of the Royal Society (1689-1690). He was a famous collector; his coin collection was published in 1746, and the BM bought this coin when it was dispersed by Sotheby's in 1848. BM 508.3.4 was bequeathed by Dr. Laurie Lawrence in 1950. Lawrence was Honorary Assistant Keeper in the Department of Coins and Medals, and he gave many coins to the BM.

I suspect the left hand (Pembroke) coin has not been cleaned since the 1600's, if then. Notice the orange encrustations, that would presumably fall off with even the lightest cleaning. An uncleaned EID MAR, and long may it stay this way!

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2013, 12:54:52 am »
The British Museum has a lot of RR denarii with dark toning that I like a lot

The BM coins were scanned - not photographed - and in many cases look darker than in real life (but any photo editor can enhance them). Still, it's generally true that BM coins are toned and have never been cleaned: this is a photo I took myself of a couple of old collection BM coins;

[ur

Thanks for the update on the scanned BM coins.  RE your Eid Mar coin on the right, I especially like the shadow toning on the letters.  The BM collection has a lot of  nice shadow-toning RR denarii that makes nice contrast. And like you I hope the orange encrustations never fall off the other  coin. I like RR denarii that look old.

 BTW, I have enjoyed reading the acquisition notes on the BM RR denarii.  It amazes me that Charles Hersh donated 5,000 coins. I have the 1910 BMRRC catalog and a printed  updated catalog would have to be twice as big as that 1910 edition. But now with the Internet the catalog is updated with great pictures better that plates and of course it is FREE.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2013, 01:13:59 am »
Julia Domna

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-91159

This one is absolutely gorgeous in hand, I've since flipped it over.  I wonder how long it will take for the obverse to catch up? :)!


Offline carthago

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Re: Color and tone of Ar Denarii.
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2013, 09:23:32 am »
To me, this is essentially perfectly toned.


 

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