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Author Topic: My Coin of the Year  (Read 4058 times)

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Offline David Atherton

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My Coin of the Year
« on: January 19, 2009, 02:45:42 pm »
Yes, another Titus;)

RIC 985 (Vesp)
Rome Mint, July 77 AD - December 78 AD
Obv - T CAESAR VESPASIANVS; Head of Titus, laureate, bearded, r.
Rev - IMP XIII in exergue; Goatherd std. l., milking goat l.
R

This type had been one of my 'dream coins' since I started collecting Flavian denarii. A very tough coin to find and one I couldn't resist. Puzzling enough, it is listed as R by the RIC, as is the more common Vespasian version of the goatherd type. I think the Titus is a bit rarer.

It is quite obvious that this reverse is part of an agrarian propaganda series. Unlike the goat  referring to Jupiter as seen on a denarius of Domitian as Caesar (RIC 267 (Titus), this type has rustic overtones.

I love this reverse, well centered and fairly clear. Unfortunately, I only have the old dealer's pic.

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2009, 03:19:20 pm »
What a fascinating coin. I have never seen this reverse type before. Milking a goat is hard work and not something I have fond childhood memories of.
Many thanks for sharing.
Regards,
Martin

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2009, 05:34:06 pm »
I can see why it's important to you, it's a very appealing type.

Steve

Offline Noah

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2009, 09:25:34 pm »
I have seen this reverse type very rarely, and only in catalogues either paper or virtual.  It is intriguing and appealing indeed.  This is more than coin of the year...it is one of the prized coin of an entire collection!

Best, Noah

Offline David Atherton

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2009, 06:37:07 am »
Thank you all for the congrats.

Martin, I never tried miking a goat, but I will take your word for it that it is indeed hard work!

A side note and question about a detail on the reverse. The goatherd is obviously wearing a garment that is a bit 'rustic'(?) looking. The BMC describes it as 'a rough cloak' over a tunic. What kind of cloak would this be? Is it made of animal hides or some other basic material?

Perhaps this is an antiquarian stock type that is meant to evoke an essence of an idyllic county scene?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Offline Diederik

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2009, 07:38:43 am »
In mythology the only goat I can think of is Amalthea, but there is no other link to her giving milk than to infant Zeus. Perhaps the simple meaning of the picture on this coin is: What was good for Jupiter is good for everyone?

Splendid coin btw


Frans

Offline David Atherton

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2009, 02:15:30 pm »
Interesting theory Frans!

The Domitian denarius I referred to above does indeed feature Amalthea. Issued, presumably, to link Domitian to Zeus/Jupiter.

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2009, 07:21:22 am »
Great coin, congrats! Actually from this reverse it seems like the goatherd is not milking the goat but engaging in some rather zoophyllic activities with it...  ;D Forgive me the joke, could not resist it  :evil:

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2009, 07:47:01 am »
lol, i was thinking the same but didnt want to be the first to say it, for the English people here i think this is a Welsh mint.
seriously nice coin though

Offline David Atherton

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2009, 08:51:14 am »
Great coin, congrats! Actually from this reverse it seems like the goatherd is not milking the goat but engaging in some rather zoophyllic activities with it...  ;D Forgive me the joke, could not resist it  :evil:

Yeah, the lighting in the picture is horrible. The individual I purchased the coin from only had the dealer pic and I'm a schlep when it comes to photography.

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2009, 09:12:56 am »
lol, i was thinking the same but didnt want to be the first to say it, for the English people here i think this is a Welsh mint.
seriously nice coin though

As long as the Welsh amongst us (including myself) don't take offence that is  :police: .
Martin

romeo

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2009, 10:55:19 am »
oopps! sorry martin! :-[

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2009, 11:08:32 am »
Lol.

Offline Rupert

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2009, 06:08:01 pm »
Congratulation to a beautiful, interesting and rare coin type!

Sorry, I know I'm a hair-splitter, but:
Mostly this type is described as a man milking a goat. The type is often struck from worn dies, or it's the coins themselves that are worn; so it's often hard to distinguish between a sheep and a goat. There are, however, some coins on which I do clearly see a sheep (like http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=57938&AucID=61&Lot=1016 , http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=87445&AucID=93&Lot=2671 , http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=115038&AucID=131&Lot=696 ), while I still have to see one with a clear goat. I know that zoology is no strong asset of mine, but can you show me a coin of this type with a clear goat? Note that goats (see http://www.coinarchives.com/a/results.php?results=100&search=titus+and+goat ) were represented in a characteristic manner, with "goatee" beard and horns emphasized.

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline David Atherton

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2009, 09:07:58 am »
Rupert,

Funny that you should mention the goat/sheep question concerning the animal being milked. The seller and I had that same exact conversation. Indeed, we thought that both sheep and goats have been featured...though we questioned whether sheep's milk was drunk to any large extent by the ancient Romans.

Offline Rupert

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2009, 09:41:43 am »
Well, as I have very little knowledge of agriculture, I looked it up in Wikipedia, and this is roughly what it says about sheep's milk:

Sheep were domesticated about 8,000 years ago, long before cattle. So sheep's milk is one of the oldest foodstuffs of mankind. The Bible mentions the fact that sacrificial lambs would be slaughtered very young so that the ewe could be milked.
Yoghurt, originally, was produced exclusively from sheep's milk; in the Caucasus mountains and many other rough areas, sheep were superior to cattle because of their lower demands.
In Germany (I think this goes for all of middle Europe) sheep were milked only in times of need as "little man's cows".
Many traditional kinds of cheese, like French Roquefort, Italian Pecorino or Greek Feta, are made from sheep's milk. Sheep's milk contains about twice as much fat as cow milk.

So the shepherd might milk a sheep just as well as a goat. Iconographically, when the Romans wanted an animal to look like a goat, they usually made it very clear, so I would vote for a sheep here.

Rupert
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.

Offline slokind

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2009, 05:18:44 pm »
Ghiaourti probatôn (sheep's milk yogurt) is delicious!  Not just because it is fat, but for its flavor.  So are sheep and goat feta.  Pat L.

Offline Bacchus

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2009, 06:23:58 pm »
I  have to chip in here -- I grew up on a farm that had both sheep and goats.

Goats have larger udders and can be milked from behind easily enough - I've done that - believe me it's not that exciting!.  Sheep's anatomy is slightly different and the teats are more to the side and are much smaller.  It would be pretty tricky to get at a sheeps udder from behind - though I have never tried !! so my vote would be for a goat - in this depiction.  Goats have longer legs too -- and sheep are more ...fluffy ... the more I think about it, this has to be a goat  but ... and I want to be very clear about this ... I am not an expert  :D

MAlcolm

PS - a great coin too - I have never seen one before

Offline David Atherton

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2009, 09:16:14 am »
Quote from: Bacchus on January 24, 2009, 06:23:58 pm
I  have to chip in here -- I grew up on a farm that had both sheep and goats.

Goats have larger udders and can be milked from behind easily enough - I've done that - believe me it's not that exciting!.  Sheep's anatomy is slightly different and the teats are more to the side and are much smaller.  It would be pretty tricky to get at a sheeps udder from behind - though I have never tried !! so my vote would be for a goat - in this depiction.  Goats have longer legs too -- and sheep are more ...fluffy ... the more I think about it, this has to be a goat  but ... and I want to be very clear about this ... I am not an expert  :D

Baccus, that is good enough for me! Not being familiar with either species, I bow to your superior knowledge. A goat it is then. Perhaps our confusing this animal with a sheep is down to the individual die-cutters skill depicting a goat!

Offline Rupert

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2009, 09:38:36 am »
Or we might ask:
The die-cutters under Vespasian were certainly skilled enough to make a goat look like a goat, see my "titus and goat" Coinarchives link above. But did these city-folks know enough about agriculture to know what Malcolm knows - that sheep are impractical to milk from behind? Or did they just take their artistic freedom to show the shepherd behind the sheep, because it would have been quite a difficult composition to show him milking the sheep from the side?

I'm not quite convinced yet.

Rupert
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2009, 06:51:03 pm »
A type which has long fascinated me, because of its rarity and because one doesn't expect to find genre scenes on Roman imperial coins!  What was the purpose behind the choice of this type and the simultaneous Sow and three piglets type on denarii of Vespasian and Titus?  The only other type of this IMP XIX / XIII issue was Modius filled with wheat ears and poppies, struck for Vesp. only, not Titus.

A lot of Vespasian's denarius types copied old Republican and early imperial rev. types, I think because Vespasian was actively withdrawing these old coins, and melting them down and restriking them in order to profit from Nero's debasement of the aureus and denarius in 64.  But neither the Goatherd milking goat nor the Sow and three piglets type had occurred on any earlier Roman coin.

Apparently Goatherd milking goat was a standard type in ancient art, for a very similar type appeared on later provincial coins of Cyzicus, for example SNG Aulock 7377 of Julia Domna.  There the scene faces right rather than left; the goat turns back her head to look at the goatherd; she has short, slightly curving horns and (apparently) a beard, which I suppose would make her definitely a goat rather than a sheep; and there is a tree behind the goatherd whose branches extend over the scene.

The Aulock SNG cites Imhoof-Keller, Tier- und Pflanzenbilder, 1899, p. 18.  Unfortunately a work that is not in my library; I wonder if the authors make any useful comments about the type!

The first time I became aware of this type may have been when such a denarius of Vespasian, in worn condition but with unpublished left-facing portrait on the obverse, appeared in Glendining's Bob Arnold sale of Roman denarii in 1969.  If memory serves I bought the coin, then sold it to Oxford with the rest of my pre-193 collection around 1990, and that identical specimen is now illustrated in the new RIC, pl. 12, 979!

Curtis Clay

Offline slokind

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2009, 09:19:51 pm »
Imh-Bl & Keller, I just googled the title, remembering that I'd seen it before, but I haven't read it yet.  Pat L.
http://books.google.com/books?id=p0cvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PR1&lpg=PR1&dq=Tier+und+pflanzenbilder&source=bl&ots=J0AGSTdplC&sig=1NUSM-mE_3UNqv3wmIIPHuqkUT8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
It has lots of plates, and the species are organized, from mammals on down, according to phyla of that time.
But I can't find any of the Flavians in the index of emperors, or specifically on the pages of Ziege for Taf. II and III.
Taf. III, 14 is Commodus, Cyzicus, Goatherd milking, complete with tree and pitcher for the milk.  Löbbecke collection (then).
Pat

Offline curtislclay

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2009, 09:38:21 pm »
Thanks for the link!

Apparently the book presents illustrations of ancient coins and gems depicitng plants and animals, and descriptions of the coins and gems illustrated, but no commentary whatever.  Keller, one of the authors, intended the book to serve as illustrations for a monograph he had published earlier, on Animals in Classical Antiquity.

The Cyzican type can at least be seen there, however, illustrated from a coin of Commodus, Pl. III, 14.
Curtis Clay

Offline slokind

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2009, 09:46:03 pm »
Just so.  But it does say from what collection each specimen came.    It looks like Imh-Bl doing a kindness for a friend.  Nice to have, though.  Pat

Offline numus

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Re: My Coin of the Year
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2009, 10:47:39 pm »
Can these types possibly allude to Virgil's second Georgic?  Carausius issued several types that alluded to Virgil's works.    There is a Carausian VBERITAS type which shows someone milking a cow, and some think it ties in with the other Virgilian references on his coins - the return of the golden age, peace, etc.  I think the Georgics were composed at the end of Octavian's civil wars and were meant to show an idyllic time returning.  It would seem that at the end of the year of the four emperors that Romans might be looking for some references to peace returning!  However, if this type were really issued in 77, that would be a little late, but certainly the rustic scenes of life in Italy painted by Virgil may be the reference in any event.
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