Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: My Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders  (Read 7883 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cmcdon0923

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1148
My Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« on: February 18, 2019, 10:40:05 pm »
I have begun uploading images of my collection of Lion Daalders (and half daalders) of the various united provinces of the Netherlands.  There coins were minted between the years 1575 and 1713, and circulated widely around the globe as international trade coins. 

I have about 30 coins in my collection so far, and will be uploading additional images as I get them processed.

I welcome any corrections or other issues you may see with any of the listings.  Please either post them here, or PM me directly.



https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6578

Online quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10691
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2019, 10:19:31 am »
Congratulation,  +++

Great coins,  ;)

 I have only this:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6845

Regards

Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline cmcdon0923

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1148
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2019, 11:03:58 am »
That's a nice, even, coin.

FYI...it's a Davenport 4870 / Delmonte 836

Online quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10691
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2019, 11:13:24 am »
Thank you  +++ ;)

Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline cmcdon0923

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1148
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2019, 06:31:48 pm »
I added a pretty decent 1641 Gelderland specimen to the gallery today.

Online quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10691
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2019, 01:25:50 am »
Nice piece,  ;) +++

Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline cmcdon0923

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1148
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2019, 05:39:36 pm »
Slowly working through my coins, trying to get them organized and uploaded.....just uploaded 4 more images.....only about 36 more to go..... ::)

Offline cmcdon0923

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1148
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2020, 05:29:56 pm »
I finally got around to getting some of my backlogged images uploaded.  I uploaded nine new images today......20 down and only 30 more to go.

Now comes the hard part....photographing the rest.


https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6578







Offline Simon

  • Comitia Curiata
  • Procurator Caesaris
  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • Tetartera Collector
    • Byzantine Tetartera
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2020, 11:15:54 pm »
Nice collection, just went through them all.

Simon
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5633 My main collection of Tetartera. Post reform coinage.

Online quadrans

  • Tribunus Plebis 2019
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 10691
  • Ad perpetuam rei memoriam. Ars longa, vita brevis.
    • My Gallery Albums
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2020, 04:33:19 am »
Wow,  :)

Great collection of the Lion Daalders... +++


Q.
All the Best :), Joe
My Gallery

Offline Mark R1

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
    • My Gallery
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2020, 06:41:08 am »
I added a pretty decent 1641 Gelderland specimen to the gallery today.

Ink blot test on the reverse. I first thought it looked like a frog standing on his hind legs.

Offline cmcdon0923

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1148
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2020, 02:18:41 pm »
Quote
Ink blot test on the reverse. I first thought it looked like a frog standing on his hind legs.


Well Mark, when they were heavily worn they were sometimes referred to as "dog dollars" because the lion tended to look more like a dog.  But I've never heard of them being called "frog dollars".


Craig

Offline Anaximander

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2020, 05:45:00 am »
You've a lovely collection of Lion Daalders, something I know precious little about.  Thanks for sharing. 
I wonder at the consistent quality of legends and fullness of flan. Is that characteristic of that coinage or of the collecter?

The Davenport and Delmonte numismatic references are unfamiliar.  Are you holding out hope for Medieval European Coinage to deliver on their Germany volumes?  Their project plan had  the following projected volumes:
2.  Germany (I). Imperial and Early Ducal Coinage. Western Germany
3.  Germany (II). North-eastern Germany
4.  Germany (III). Central and Southern Germany

And as to your 1641 Gelderland example, the obverse strikes me as a bloke trying to hitch up his pants while holding a fish...  ;)

Anaximander






Offline cmcdon0923

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1148
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2020, 11:54:08 am »
The Lion Daalder series is one of the crudest of the crown-sized coins issued at that time, especially when you compare them to some of the German masterpieces.  But this really didn’t matter, as they were issued primarily as a trade coin, and not for domestic use, seeing as they were only .75% silver.  During their heyday they were one of if not the primary international trade coin.  They actually circulated quite extensively in the early US, as the Dutch controlled New Amsterdam (modern day New York).

The coins are generally struck on nice full planchets.  Clipping didn’t seem to be too significant an issue, although I’m sure it did occur.  The designs and legends often suffer from striking weakness as there was a lot of metal that needed to be moved around.  Even many of the “so called” mint state pieces you see listed for sale show significant weakness in spots.  I generally try to buy pieces with above average striking details, but that’s just my personal preference.

John S. Davenport wrote numerous books on European crowns, generally broken out into date ranges.  For example, the Lion Daalders are found within three different volumes:  European Crowns 1484 – 1600; European Crowns 1600 – 1700; and European Crowns 1700 – 1800.

I have a hardcopy of the 1600 – 1700 volume since that’s where the majority of the series lies.  I have a copy of the pages of the 1484 – 1600 volume that pertain to the series.  I don’t have anything for the series after 1700, partially because once you reach that timeframe, the coins become very scarce or even prohibitively rare, as they were “on their way out” as a coinage.
Delmonte published his book, “The Silver Benelux”, in 1967.  The book is in French and English.

All of the books above can be a bit pricey, hence the reason I bought only the one Davenport book, and I was able to buy a copy of Delmonte’s book from LULU.com as a print-on-demand, for less than one half the price of an original copy.

I just recently heard of another two volume book, written by D. Purmer and A. H. N. van der Wiel in 2006, titled: HANDBOEK VAN DE NEDERLANDSE PROVINCIALE MUNTSLAG DEEL 1 1573-1806.  It is in Dutch, but I believe it includes a great amount of historical information about the Dutch mints, as the most recent coin I bought was described with their numbering scheme and include information such as the mint location, Mintmaster’s name, and even the name of the die sinkers employed at the time.

Offline Anaximander

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2020, 01:01:52 pm »
Thanks for that cogent synopsis.

I went looking for numiswiki entries, but wasn’t particularly successful. There is an entry for Davenport’s works, but little that I could see on crowns, and nothing on “daalders”

No page title is an exact match for your search entry.
Click here to create a new page with the page title 'Daalder'.
No match for 'Daalder' in titles.   No match for 'Daalder' in references.   

My medieval collection lies elsewhere (Anglo-Franco and crusader), but I appreciate a well curated collection just like any good medievalist.

AbeBooks has the Purmer book (volume I) for under $30, but shipping from the Netherlands is half again the price of the book.

Anaximander

Offline cmcdon0923

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1148
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2020, 01:40:22 pm »
Quote
AbeBooks has the Purmer book (volume I) for under $30, but shipping from the Netherlands is half again the price of the book.


One would really need both volumes to make it of any real value to collecting the series, because the various mints are divided between the two volumes. 

And because the text is in Dutch (which I don't speak), I don't think it would be of significant value to me, personally.  Hopefully some day I will come upon a copy and after looking at it, will be able to better determine its value as a collection tool.


Craig

Offline djmacdo

  • Tribunus Plebis 2017
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
  • I love this forum!
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2020, 01:44:43 pm »
Such nice specimens, so much better than the average!

Offline cmcdon0923

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1148
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2020, 02:16:47 pm »
Thank you DJ.


Offline cmcdon0923

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1148
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2020, 03:42:56 pm »
I replaced three of the photos last night as the ones I had originally uploaded were horribly (!!) over-processed. 

The new ones are for the 1598, 1604, and 1605 daalders.


Craig

Offline djmacdo

  • Tribunus Plebis 2017
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
  • I love this forum!
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2020, 08:59:12 pm »
Yours are really nice coins.  I have just been doing some research and writing about the Caribbean during the first half of the sixteenth century, and at that time the Dutch had a virtual trade monopoly in the Caribbean.  So now I have an urge to pick up one of these between about 1620 and 1660.

Mac

Offline djmacdo

  • Tribunus Plebis 2017
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
  • I love this forum!
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2020, 08:26:28 pm »
Darn You!  Now you have gotten me interested in Lion Dollars.  I have ordered the Dutch book and even begun to look into the imitation Lion Daalders from Italy, Transylvania, and so on.  I even saw one in an old auction with a countermark from Malta!  I cannot afford these rare pieces--indeed, I do not even have a regular lion dollar yet--but I can make a collection of photographs.

Cordially,

Mac

Offline cmcdon0923

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1148
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2020, 06:19:16 pm »
Sorry Mac, but I know the feeling.  Four years ago I owned ZERO.....now I have a total of 50 pieces, both daalders and halves.


Craig

Offline djmacdo

  • Tribunus Plebis 2017
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
  • I love this forum!
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2020, 08:26:33 pm »
The imitation lion daalders are fascinating too--from Italy, Transylvania--even pieces with the inscription ORIENT for eastern trade.  It is a shame they are so rare and pricey.

The regular lion daalders have so many fascinating variations too!

Offline cmcdon0923

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 1148
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2020, 09:54:57 pm »
And in addition to the imitations issued in the surrounding areas, there are also the outright counterfeits, contemporaneously issued in Europe, and even the US.

Here are two of mine.  One is a silver plated copper piece, reminiscent of an ancient fouree....so maybe this could be called a modern fouree?

The second is a copper struck or cast piece that I assume was also at one time silver plated.


Craig

Offline djmacdo

  • Tribunus Plebis 2017
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 4483
  • I love this forum!
Re: Gallery of Dutch Lion Daalders
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2020, 02:35:01 pm »
Those counterfeits are fascinating too!

I just bought my first lion dollar--not a great coin, but decent.  Pictures when it comes.  Nothing special. but at least full legends.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity