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Author Topic: Constantinvs Avg Thessalonica solidus fakes Transfer dies problems  (Read 2074 times)

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Offline Lech Stępniewski

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A question for those who have good eyes.

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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2022, 03:03:14 pm »
Yes, they appear to be.

I noted the 2nd coin with interest when it sold .. seems like it may be a mule, given that the reverse type dates to c.324 at all mints, whereas the long haired draped bust is probably 330AD or later.


Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2022, 03:49:35 pm »
seems like it may be a mule, given that the reverse type dates to c.324 at all mints, whereas the long haired draped bust is probably 330AD or later.

This bust type was introduced in Thessalonica in 326-328 (legend in 328), so maybe SMTSA issue was still treated at that time as "in progress". It is hard to believe that workers found the old reverse die and used it without permission of authorities. Quite the opposite, it is reasonable to assume that the gold emissions were minted with an extra care.
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Offline Dominic T

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2022, 05:40:17 pm »
IMHO the obverse is very similar but not a die-match.
DT

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2022, 06:28:49 pm »
Dominic, The obverse? ???

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2022, 06:34:02 pm »
Clearly typo for reverse!

I agree with Heliodromus that the rev. die is the same.
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2022, 06:43:54 pm »
Here's the Thessalonica issues and bust progression. RIC and Depeyrot agree on the issue sequence and dates.

According to this sequencing, after RIC 131 we've got an intervening issue (SMTS), bust type (jewelled diadem), and change of reverse type, before the draped bust introduction about 6 years later.

To me the bust style of the coin in question doesn't really look like these 1st draped diademed Thessalonican busts (e.g. RIC 174 example), or even much like any Thessalonica bust I've seen for that matter! The engraver may have come from another mint.

Anyways, it seems anomalous to me. YMMV.

Edit: Updated graphic with a different RIC 131 specimen that better shows bust style continuity. Originally included specimen was from suspect die.



Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2022, 07:16:06 pm »
The engraver may have come from another mint.

Interesting hypothesis! Maybe he traveled with Constantine (which was in Thessalonica in 327 and then in 330) because there was sometimes an unexpected occasion to give some donativa. So in an emergency, that old reverse die has been accepted.
Lech Stępniewski
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Offline Dominic T

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2022, 08:07:26 pm »
Dominic, The obverse? ???

I was testing the group’s sense of humor. Not very present here…
DT

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2022, 10:08:29 pm »
I was being sarcastic as well.   :angel: 

Offline v-drome

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2022, 10:30:16 pm »
WE are not amused.

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2022, 09:08:38 am »
Quote
Interesting hypothesis!

The two observations "seems like a mule" and "[bust] engraver may have come from another mint" aren't necessarily related, so no hypothesis intended!




Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2022, 09:19:36 am »
Dear Board,

On the contrary, I find this all rather amusing.  Dominic was trying to be upfront with his humor while Jay was trying to go about it in reverse.*

*Note:  No coinage dies were harmed during the course of making these "cracks."


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan   

P.S.:  On a more serious note, yes, both reverse dies look identical to me, too, although they are in clearly different die sates.  This has left me wondering...isn't the "earlier' use of the die in a more worn state than its "later" use?  There are many areas for comparison, but consider, in particular, the die crack stretching from the last 'S' in "CONSTANTINVS."   

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2022, 10:10:37 am »
Quote
the die crack stretching from the last 'S' in "CONSTANTINVS."

I'd interpret that as a flow line rather than die crack, but I'm no expert in this type of forensics!

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2022, 11:50:08 am »
so no hypothesis intended!

So what would be the most plausible hypothesis in your opinion? I don't want to suggest anything, however, one of my thoughts was: OMG, could it be another transfer dies forgery...
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2022, 08:25:59 pm »
All potential explanations seem problematic, but unless more turn up I'd go with mule (maybe obsolete rev die wasn't where it was meant to be?)

Offline Ron C2

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2022, 09:17:39 pm »
I was thinking same thing... Possible transfer die fake.
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Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2022, 10:24:39 pm »
Possible transfer die fake.

Yes, these stories (which I also like) about discovered old die or an engraver traveling with Constantine are fascinating - as stories. But this coin should not exist. So now I think the simplest explanation must be considered in the first place, i.e. that this coin is a modern forgery. I wrote PM to Din X and I am curious about his opinion.
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2022, 07:53:37 am »
Well, there's definitely some fakes have been produced from this reverse die.

Following coins can all be found searching for "Thessalonica 131" on AC Search.

First, here's two, double die match, showing die in an early state.



Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2022, 07:56:01 am »
Now we have coin from top post. Compare victory's below-waist drapery compared to above specimens - clearly doesn't match and has been tooled.

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2022, 07:59:25 am »
Saving the best (worst) for last, these two (double die linked, and to above coin as well) are either fake or at best show die in an advanced state of wear. Note same damage to the shield and exergual line below it.

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2022, 08:02:35 am »
Then finally we have the "mule" under discussion, put here for easy comparison, which does not share above damage.

So on that basis (not latest die state) this one seems fake, and maybe the three above it as well.

I guess it's conceivable that only the above two are fake and don't reflect actual end condition of reverse die in 324 AD, but that seems less likely.

Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2022, 08:23:11 am »
So on that basis (not latest die state) this one seems fake, and maybe the three above it as well.

Could you be more specific, Ben, because now I am a little bit confused. So which one of these five THESSALONICA 131 coins is another fake? All five? The first two? The first three? The last two? The last three? Maybe give them numbers. Do you think that the reverse die of the third (tooled) coin is a tooled reverse of the coin in question?
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Offline Lech Stępniewski

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2022, 08:38:09 am »
And now it is time to search for the prototype (die) of the obverse of this "mule" Constantine.

My first guess (diadem, hair) is Constantinople. Something like that



But I may be wrong.
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Are these two coins from the same reverse die?
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2022, 09:16:59 am »
The more I look at them, the more I don't like any of them.

C & D are identical down to flow lines and shield/exergual line damage. I think these are definitely fake.

E is tooled and double die linked to C & D, but obv/rev dies both in earlier state.

For F to be ancient (dating to 330 AD+) it would have to have rev die in most worn state from 324 AD usage, but certainly doesn't have damage of C & D.

Another factor here is the bust style. We'd expect some variation between officinas, but busts A/B and C/D/E are notably different from the rest, including an officina E specimen.

If I had to guess I'd say:

C-F all fake

A-B maybe fake

Obv dies A/B and C/D/E perhaps modern ?



 

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