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Author Topic: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?  (Read 5607 times)

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greenr18

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How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic? I have one that I got a long time ago but I have no clue as to whether it's real or not and do not know how to tell.

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2008, 07:55:35 pm »
Well, to start you can post a picture.

Welcome to the board.

greenr18

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2008, 08:36:00 pm »
Quote from: Titus Pullo on August 29, 2008, 07:55:35 pm
Well, to start you can post a picture.

Welcome to the board.

Thanks, these are the best pictures I could get from my crappy camera.

Offline jon gress

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2008, 09:33:47 pm »
I can't say for certain, but to me it looks very similar to one of the Toronto Group forgeries.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pos=1

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2008, 09:38:38 pm »
I can't say for certain, but to me it looks very similar to one of the Toronto Group forgeries.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pos=1

I think the link is wrong, that's not a Tribute penny...

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2008, 09:44:22 pm »
It looks okay to me but I certainly will give way to the more enlightened members.  Do you know the weight?  and where did you buy it?  If you got it on a street corner in Kandahar I'd say forget it, but if you got it from a dealer chances are it's okay.  This is a very common denarius but also one that is very sought after...hence the crazy prices these things get (and why I don't own one yet!). 

Offline jon gress

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2008, 09:48:27 pm »
That was the wrong link (for anyone but me anyway.)  Here is a picture.

EDIT: and the correct link (hopefully)

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-66

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2008, 09:56:27 pm »
That's a better link!  and I believe you are right, to my eyes looking at each coin side by side it appears to be a die match on a beaten up flan.  Is anyone else seeing that?

greenr18

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2008, 10:52:17 pm »
Quote from: Titus Pullo on August 29, 2008, 09:44:22 pm
It looks okay to me but I certainly will give way to the more enlightened members.  Do you know the weight?  and where did you buy it?  If you got it on a street corner in Kandahar I'd say forget it, but if you got it from a dealer chances are it's okay.  This is a very common denarius but also one that is very sought after...hence the crazy prices these things get (and why I don't own one yet!). 

Actually I found it on the ground years ago which is partly why I'm not surprised if it is a fake seeing as how I don't live in Europe.

Offline Ibex-coins

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2008, 11:38:36 pm »
Quote from: Titus Pullo on August 29, 2008, 09:56:27 pm
That's a better link!  and I believe you are right, to my eyes looking at each coin side by side it appears to be a die match on a beaten up flan.  Is anyone else seeing that?

I agree with you, does not appear genuine, appears to be a cast fake.

Offline commodus

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2008, 01:27:59 am »
A LOT of replicas of these exist, most made not for collectors nor specifically to deceive (though some certainly were) but for non-numismatically inclined religious Christians who believe this was the coin Jesus made reference to in his "render unto Caesar" pronouncement. However, it is highly unlikely as these would have been uncommon in Judaea. An accurate name for it is what it is simply what it is: a denarius of Tiberius. In any case, the coin in the photos appears to be a fake but whether a tourist/pilgrim replica, a museum shop reproduction, or an outright fake I can't tell.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Offline Will Hooton

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2008, 05:35:28 am »
Quote from: commodus on August 30, 2008, 01:27:59 am
However, it is highly unlikely as these would have been uncommon in Judaea.

Why not?

These coins are found spread all over the empire, why not Judea?

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2008, 06:39:25 am »
They just don't seem to find many in Judaea.  But they do find some.  And Jesus only needed one.
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2008, 07:13:53 am »
They were minted in the west, in Rome, and the overhelming majority of Roman silver in the east at the time was from in eastern mints like Antioch. They just don't turn up very often in that region as a result.

OK, Jesus would only have needed one, but my worry is that so often, people start a dodgy argument with a statement like that, which is valid, but obviously isn't evidence, and then proceed on the basis that the possibility is established truth. The reality is, the story only mentions a 'denarius', any old denarius with an image of a Caesar will do, and given Mark's habit of Romanising everything (presumably to make it accessible to his particular audience), we can't be sure that the original term was 'denarius' anyway. He carefully explains, for instance, that the 'two lepta' he gives the poor widow are equal to a quadrans, the smallest Roman coin which would, presumably, have been a lot more familiar to his audience. A denarius was equivalent to a drachm, so a straight 'translation' would have served his purpose perfectly.
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2008, 08:22:30 am »
True but why so many ancient Indian fakes of this type?

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2008, 09:00:27 am »
I find Roberts argument appealing. So is this coin or something similar more likley to be our 'tribute penny'?

A tetradrachm of Tiberius from Antioch


Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2008, 11:13:59 am »
This discussion has come up soooooo many times.  I suggest searching for the other threads about it.  We don't need to go through it all again.
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Offline commodus

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2008, 12:40:58 pm »
The term remains a major peeve to me since it is historically unlikely and numismatically grossly inaccurate. That's why Imentioned it. Point is, nobody knows WHICH coin Jesus used so why focus in on THIS one? (a drachm is more likely but who knows?). I didn't intend to start a debate I merely meant to suggest -- and still do -- that these should be called what they are: denarii of Tiberius. The continued and widespread use of the term "tribute penny" for them is incorrect.
That said, I'll say no more on the subject here. As Joe has rightly pointed out, it has been discussed (though not settled -- it likely never will be I suppose) before.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2008, 03:42:42 pm »
Quote from: commodus on August 30, 2008, 12:40:58 pm
Point is, nobody knows WHICH coin Jesus used so why focus in on THIS one? (a drachm is more likely but who knows?).

The earliest surviving version of this pericope is in Mark (12:15) and although writing in Greek, the author specifically calls the coin denarion (i.e. denarius).  Granted, denarion may well have been the adaptation of the evangelist who is believed to have been writing to an Italian audience who were debating among themselves whether they should pay taxes to Nero, the Caesar of their day. Indeed, the author of Mark uses Latinate names for coins in several instances.

From a purely historical perspective, I think it is likely that during the course of his ministry Jesus must have used this teaching any number of times (it's just too good to have been used only once!) , making use of whatever portrait coin might have been available.

However, from a collecting perspective, if we start with the proposition that the coin was indeed a "denarius" as the gospel explicitly states, then the Livia seated type of Tiberius is the most likely candidate. Tiberius was emperor throughout the adult lifetime of Jesus and with a few rare exceptions, all of his denarii were of this single type.

Not an attempt at debate, merely a quick explanation for those who might be wondering just why this particular type has been  taken, at least traditionally, as the "Tribute Penny".

Dave 

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2008, 06:43:52 pm »
Sigh!
I'm clearly on the losing end of this debate.
Oh well... like so many religious arguments throughout history, those with reason on their side typically lose out to those with only passion on theirs.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2008, 06:47:01 pm »
Regardless, though, the fact remains that Jesus HIMSELF called the coin a denarius so if it IS the coin he used, well then, even HE called it a denarius, not a "tribute penny." So why can't WE call it that too?

Argh! I'll say no more about it!
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2008, 08:14:35 pm »
Quote from: commodus on August 30, 2008, 06:47:01 pm
Regardless, though, the fact remains that Jesus HIMSELF called the coin a denarius so if it IS the coin he used, well then, even HE called it a denarius, not a "tribute penny." So why can't WE call it that too?

Argh! I'll say no more about it!

You have to remember that the term attributed to him was recorded a number of years after his death, by that time the penetration of denari had begun in ernest and so you would see more denari in circulation during the time that the gospels were written.  During Jesus's time the eastern mints provide silver coins that were used for daily commerce.

With phrases attibuted to Jesus you also have to ask yourself who did the translation of the text that you are getting your quotations from.  It is doubtful that Jesus would have used the word Denarius to refer to a silver coin in Judaea during his lifetime, it is more likely that someone writing 40-200 years later would have used the term, or that someone who was translating the writings into latin hundreds of years later would also have used the term.

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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2008, 08:17:41 pm »
This is where we invariably end up banging our heads against a brick wall. Fact is, we have no direct access to anything Jesus either said or did. We have four accounts (leaving aside the apocryphal gospels) of his life, all of which are significantly different. In the case of Matthew and Luke, we can actually watch how they changed and expanded Mark's account. In all cases we have Greek accounts of conversations which, if they did take place, were probably in Aramaic.

Those who, at bottom want to believe the canonical Gospels to be accurate accounts will always be able to convince themselves and other like-minded people. If, like me, you don't care either way, and see them as the witness of four early church communities, you're likely to conclude that little or nothing goes back to Jesus.

The first followers of Jesus were wrong to believe that he was coming back in their lifetimes. But I think I can say with absolute certainty that we'll never have agreement before he really does return!
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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2008, 10:16:35 am »
Quote from: commodus on August 30, 2008, 06:47:01 pm
Regardless, though, the fact remains that Jesus HIMSELF called the coin a denarius so if it IS the coin he used, well then, even HE called it a denarius, not a "tribute penny." So why can't WE call it that too?

We call it a 'penny' because that was the standard English (i.e. in England) translation of the word 'denarius', just as shilling was of the word 'solidus'. This survived right into the 1970s in the abbreviations for pre-decimal British coins: 'd.' for pence (the English plural of 'penny'), 's' for shilling, and £ (an L, for 'libra', the Latin word for pound) for the pound (i.e. a 'real' pound), though there were twenty shillings to a pound, not 72 solidi as in the late Roman system. So the word 'penny' really IS the word 'denarius', it's just old fashioned.

Richard
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Re: How do I tell if a Tiberius Tribute Penny is a forgery or authentic?
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2008, 10:34:55 am »
It was an entirely appropriate translation in the 1380's (as far as I know it first appears in Wyclif's earlier translation) when the penny was a high-value silver coin, comparable to a denarius. Given the value of a modern penny, the term can only cause confusion, and should have been abandoned long ago!
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