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Author Topic: Marc Antony Legion II matching dies ?  (Read 1675 times)

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Offline Ken W2

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Marc Antony Legion II matching dies ?
« on: June 16, 2021, 11:05:26 pm »

The flan surfaces and/or surface finishes may be obscuring the likeness somewhat, but aren’t these matching reverse dies on these Legion II coins?

Ken

Offline Ron C2

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Re: Marc Antony Legion II matching dies ?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2021, 11:07:58 pm »
yes, but the coin on the right looks like a soapy fake cast.
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Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Marc Antony Legion II matching dies ?
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2021, 06:19:17 am »
I knew where to look to find another die match......

Offline Ken W2

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Re: Marc Antony Legion II matching dies ?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2021, 02:02:20 pm »

Thanks guys.  In addition to being a die match, the coin on the right just looks too good to be 2000 years old.  There are hardly any surface flaws, there is not one edge crack or even a rim nick, and it looks kind of burnished. Also, while it does look a little "soapy" (some of that could be from the enlargement of the photo), every design element is plainly visible, seemingly wear free.  But what gives us pause about the coin on the left and the coin posted by maridvnvm, other than the die matches ?  Perhaps that while they show some nicks and cracks, suggesting some circulation, they too show very little and fairly even wear, which just isn't a likely wear pattern on a 2000 year old coin ?

Ken 

Offline Ron C2

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Re: Marc Antony Legion II matching dies ?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2021, 02:13:53 pm »
Others may feel differently. If for sale, I would not be a buyer of any of these.
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Offline Pawel K

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Re: Marc Antony Legion II matching dies ?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2021, 03:45:11 pm »
Many of fake M. Antonius denarii, including Leg II,  was sold about 2 years ago in Poland.

Here is another example of the same die.

Offline OldMoney

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Re: Marc Antony Legion II matching dies ?
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2021, 12:48:50 pm »
I knew where to look to find another die match......

Me too! I think I counted another four or five from this die, and several more from another equally false die. Then there are all of the other dies. Someone has done a lot of work with these. I started downloading these images late last year when I first began to notice them. I now have about 135+ examples on file so far.

It is incredible to consider, but at an average of just over €250 (a good many have sold for much more than that), that comes to almost 35,000 Euros! (More likely to be well over €50K). A profitable venture indeed.

- Walter

Edit: See attached image for details of some of the LEG II pieces that have passed through this particular dealer, including a couple of apparent 'duplicates' that "sold" for good prices (identical items? relisted? who knows).
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https://groups.yahoo.com/group/ephesuscoins
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Offline Ken W2

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Re: Marc Antony Legion II matching dies ?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2021, 12:51:57 am »

Wow, the extent of such forgeries is incredible and brings me back to where I was a few months ago with my due diligence thread— discouraged. While my last several RSC purchases have been here on Forum, a few from Vcoins dealers, and a couple of slabbed coins on Voldemort— which has given me confidence— the notion of being shut out of the broader market Voldemort is out of worry about dishonesty is, well, discouraging. While I’m learning to spot clues of fakes, some of the coins posted below look pretty good to me, but for the die matches.

Thanks for sharing your work Walter.

Ken

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Re: Marc Antony Legion II matching dies ?
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2021, 04:59:39 am »
So I guess I'm the fool that won the auction for the coin in the first post (left side). Guess I shouldn't have trusted a seller with 60k+ positive feedback.

Anyway, I attached the photos as listed. Is there anything I can do to help to get a definitive verdict on it once it arrives? E.g. take photos from the sides?

Why is it such a problem that it's a die match BTW?

Offline dwarf

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Re: Marc Antony Legion II matching dies ?
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2021, 05:42:51 am »
Should you have bought this coin on ebay from a German dealer, just tell him that this coin is a proven forgery and demand you money back.
Normally there will be no problems.
It is not your fault as a "newbie" to trust a dealer with this many positive feedbacks.
There is only one advise: never ever buy a coin on ebay (unless you are an expert). Only buy with trusted dealers either personally or online nowadays.

As to die matches between these Marc Antony forgeries - just search the forum. A lot of entries in the laste year.

Regards
Klaus

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Re: Marc Antony Legion II matching dies ?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2021, 11:31:09 am »
Should you have bought this coin on ebay from a German dealer, just tell him that this coin is a proven forgery and demand you money back.
Normally there will be no problems.
It is not your fault as a "newbie" to trust a dealer with this many positive feedbacks.
There is only one advise: never ever buy a coin on ebay (unless you are an expert). Only buy with trusted dealers either personally or online nowadays.

As to die matches between these Marc Antony forgeries - just search the forum. A lot of entries in the laste year.

Regards
Klaus
Thanks, lesson learned.

The ebay page states it's a reputable US seller, guess I'll "inform" him it's a known fake and see what happens, the item is already on its way. Else I'll have to do the ebay buyer guarantee dance.

Offline Ken W2

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Re: Marc Antony Legion II matching dies ?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2021, 07:08:09 pm »

JCD:  I have made many purchases from that dealer and believe most if not all my purchases are geniuine.  I base that on having learned (after the fact) what to look for-- flow lines, roughness inside cracks, style issues, size and weight comparison, wear patterns, fake coin reports, and die matches, but I certainly don't claim to be an expert.  I'm still a novice. I did spot this die match and a die match on an earlier Legion X coin, so I passed on them.  I know I'm gonna catch grief, but I would still buy from that seller, exercising care. I too simply don't believe someone can amass 65,000 positive feedbacks, often to buyers with hundreds or thousands of purchases under their belt, if they are routinely selling fakes. And, as I've said, I have studied my earlier purchases and posted a few here for feedback and I'm pretty confident the coins are genuine. HOWEVER, I have migrated, almost completely, away from what I call the Voldmort of auction sites because I have been convinced by the more experienced collectors here that it is a mine field.  I am buying mostly here on Forum now and some at Vcoins. On Voldemort I mostly look for slabbed coins which I can verify with the grading company.  But, I have a limited number of years left on this planet to collect Roman coins, and almost all my purchases are of modest amounts (at most, roughly the price of a casual dinner and drinks for two), so I exercise a modicum of due diligence, but do not totally avoid the mine field.

Welcome to the FORVM-- you have landed in a good place.

Ken     

 

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