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Author Topic: Help identifying coin - elephant and man  (Read 1861 times)

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Matt G6

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Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« on: April 02, 2021, 12:37:25 am »
Hi, I'm trying to identify a coin I acquired in Tunis by the Carthage ruins years ago. It lay in a bag for the past 12 years and I thought it's time to take a look at it again. I'm a novice so any help is appreciated. Does it look genuine or fake?

Offline Thilo

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2021, 03:31:50 am »
I am sorry to tell you that it is a typical tourist fake. It combines (in clearly fake style and in the wrong metal) an elephant obverse obviously intended to rememember the well-known Caesar denarius. The same is true for the other side which seems to try to copy the famous Aeneas carries Anchises Caesar coin.

But sorry, the "coin" is probably exactly the 12 years old that it lay in the bag.

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2021, 07:26:10 am »
This is a typical "tourist" coin, made in modern times to sell to tourists.

Offline Hydatius

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2021, 08:57:36 am »
Yeah, that's about as fake as they come.

In Tunisia you don't get to see the real coins until you can spot the fakes and tell the guy that he's selling fakes. Then the real ones come out of his pocket, wrapped in a piece of paper.  The same is true for any other kinds of antiquities offered outside the sites as well: all fake. When I was at Suffetula (Sbeitla) I bought some coins and the guy let all his buddies there know I knew what I was doing and had lots of Euros, and so when we tried to leave our car was completely surrounded by guys trying to sell us the most amazing artefacts. All real. My wife was freaking out and shouting, 'Go go go!' and I'm transfixed by an amazing piece of Samian ware the guy next to my window had. Our kids in the back had no idea what the heck was going on. But we survived and I didn't have to back out over anyone. I came back from that trip with a very nice selection of real—and VERY illegal—coins.
  Richard
Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine quam turpe nescire.

Offline Dominic T

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2021, 09:49:00 am »
Pretty cool story Hydatius. If I could, I would "like" it !
DT

Offline JBF

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2021, 04:41:25 pm »
I have heard stories of antiquities dealers selling to the tourist, and then turning the tourist into the local law enforcement.  If that happens, you better hope that whatever you bought was a forgery.  I would not want to be caught in some 'third world' jail.  The stories, I am sure are largely apocryphal, but I am sure something like that has happened at least once, and I would hate to be there when it happened again.

A well known dealer wanted to get some Syracusan dekadrachms, and related coins and went to Sicily. He was successful, but in the process he pissed someone off in the Mafia (probably for cutting out the middle man), and when he returned someone had tipped off customs.  He had to get a lawyer to get out of the predicament.


Offline PMah

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2021, 08:18:29 pm »
I would second JBF.  Having career-long professional dealing with crooks, I would recommend viewing one's dubious potential interaction as the LEAST crooked thing the other person  is doing that day, and act accordingly.
Be Well, Stay Healthy, Support your Local Numismatic Club

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stairman

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2021, 11:13:44 pm »
Pretty cool story Hydatius. If I could, I would "like" it !
DT
I was an Administrator on another SMF site, and unless things have changed, having likes was a "paid for" mod.
I see a lot of posts wanting that mod.
Maybe you cats could kick in a few bucks to make it happen.
Just a thought....

Offline Kevin D

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2021, 01:09:29 pm »
I have heard stories of antiquities dealers selling to the tourist, and then turning the tourist into the local law enforcement.  If that happens, you better hope that whatever you bought was a forgery.  I would not want to be caught in some 'third world' jail.  The stories, I am sure are largely apocryphal, but I am sure something like that has happened at least once, and I would hate to be there when it happened again.

A well known dealer wanted to get some Syracusan dekadrachms, and related coins and went to Sicily. He was successful, but in the process he pissed someone off in the Mafia (probably for cutting out the middle man), and when he returned someone had tipped off customs.  He had to get a lawyer to get out of the predicament.

I would second JBF.  Having career-long professional dealing with crooks, I would recommend viewing one's dubious potential interaction as the LEAST crooked thing the other person  is doing that day, and act accordingly.

Sage observations and advice from JBF and PMah

I know this happens with many illegal things; gems, drugs, antiquities.

Some of the scams are quite sophisticated. I've been worked in India on a number of occasions by people running gem scams. I never fell for this, and was never tempted to, but I was impressed by how sophisticated they are. Some scams are worked over days and even weeks to set up the mark.

I suspect that some of the cases involving high value antiquities, where a museum has purchased a sculpture and then later had to return it to its country of origin, have been scams. 'How to sell your antiquity and then have it returned to you'. Obviously not all of these cases are scams, but I suspect some are.

On a different twist, there are documented cases in India, where people have been intentionally poisoned so that they can then be taken to the doctor for treatment. These scams, run by both the restaurant and doctor. One of these was discovered when marks died from the poisoning, causing authorities to take a close look.

In Nepal, in the recent past, it was discovered that some helicopter pilots and some hospitals were in cahoots with trekking guides to cause clients to be in need of evacuation for medical treatment. Maladies were caused by poisoning and ascending too quickly causing altitude sickness. This was discovered by an undercover investigation run by an insurance company when there was a surge in claims. In some documented cases, tourists in need of immediate evacuation died, because the scammers waited for one of the helicopters that would pay the kickback to be available. Not all helicopter pilots were dirty, so the guides would not call a legitimate operator. The wait caused the evacuee's death.

The above give an idea of what kind of people you can be dealing with. Closer to home:
Trapped in a Turkish prison
https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/editorials/ct-turkey-antiquities-20150318-story.html
The story of a tourist who thought he was buying a modern made souvenir, was thrown into prison for trying to take it out of the country when it was reported to be old, then after his family spent thousands to get him back home, he was told that his souvenir was modern after all. All just an honest mistake. Yea right.

Offline djmacdo

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2021, 08:10:18 am »
Just remember, you cannot cheat an honest man--well, not often.

Offline JBF

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2021, 08:46:04 pm »
If something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.  Some people can deal profitably with snakes, many others merely think they can.  Some get lucky, but relying on luck for most of us, is a gamble.

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2021, 08:54:47 pm »
Just remember, you cannot cheat an honest man--well, not often.

Not true it is the excuse of con men that they only rob the greedy. But it is a lie. Plenty of honest people have been ripped off by con men.
Joseph Sermarini
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Offline PMah

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2021, 09:34:26 pm »
Agree with Joe.   Some people want things to be true despite signs to the contrary,  but that does not necessarily make them greedy.
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Offline Manlio

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2021, 04:50:37 pm »


3 years old but interesting story
Briton arrested in Turkey over coins he found while snorkelling

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/23/briton-arrested-in-turkey-over-coins-he-found-while-snorkelling

Offline esnible

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2021, 05:18:43 pm »
3 years old but interesting story
Briton arrested in Turkey over coins he found while snorkelling

If you are going to post that, you should mention the follow-up
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/forced-fight-life-against-17-11507325

When you see a title like "I was forced to fight for my life against 17 stone beast who looked like Satan in a T-shirt" be prepared for excellent journalism by The Daily Mirror's Scarlet Howes.

Quote
"One morning I was escorted out by guards and pushed into a small room.  There were no cameras and they locked the door. A prisoner who they called The Executioner was standing in the corner.  He had arranged a fight to the death Gladiator-style because I had sung God Save the Queen over his shouting one night.  He was part of the Georgian mafia and had shot a policeman in the head.”

Toby is no lightweight himself but feared he had “no chance” against the prisoner, who was over 6ft and pushing 17st. (17 stone = 238 lbs) But his survival instinct kicked in.

“He was huge,” Toby says. “He looked like Satan in a T-shirt. I turned round to try to get out and he punched me in the head.  When I took my top off. I gestured for him to do the same.  But as he was pulling it over his head, I punched him and kicked him in the groin."

What were jail conditions like during his 45 day stay?

Quote
When he finally got cash, Toby bought cigarettes so he could barter with guards.  He explains: “I used to get 40 cigarettes a week. I’d have a few but used the rest for bribes. I got my wedding ring back for five and my watch back for 10.  “The food was terrible. Soup, plain beans or chickpeas and a chicken drumstick once a week.  “Sometimes we got goat meatballs which you had to force down, or half a boiled egg.  “They would put on Turkish pop songs all afternoon. At night they’d show us films like Batman – all in Turkish, on a 1980s TV.

Read the whole thing, there's lots more!

Offline Thomas L3

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2021, 03:29:22 am »
All I can say is Wow! I'm brand new to both the Ancients and this Forum. I first got got interested in these coins whilst searching eBay for good deals on silver bullion, and one of those sellers happened to have "Ancient Coins" for sale. It just seemed a bit off, started searching and found this Forum , and started reading everything I could find. I spent hours studying before I made my first purchase from a very well known legitimate dealer. This information is priceless in my book.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2021, 08:10:27 am »
Quote from: Thomas L3 on April 27, 2021, 03:29:22 am
All I can say is Wow! I'm brand new to both the Ancients and this Forum. I first got got interested in these coins whilst searching eBay for good deals on silver bullion, and one of those sellers happened to have "Ancient Coins" for sale. It just seemed a bit off, started searching and found this Forum , and started reading everything I could find. I spent hours studying before I made my first purchase from a very well known legitimate dealer. This information is priceless in my book.

Please support the source of this "priceless" information with an order from FORVM ANCIENT COINS, today!
Joseph Sermarini
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Offline Thomas L3

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2021, 09:46:40 pm »
Quote from: Thomas L3 on April 27, 2021, 03:29:22 am
All I can say is Wow! I'm brand new to both the Ancients and this Forum. I first got got interested in these coins whilst searching eBay for good deals on silver bullion, and one of those sellers happened to have "Ancient Coins" for sale. It just seemed a bit off, started searching and found this Forum , and started reading everything I could find. I spent hours studying before I made my first purchase from a very well known legitimate dealer. This information is priceless in my book.

Please support the source of this "priceless" information with an order from FORVM ANCIENT COINS, today!

Joe Semarini, I just purchased a nice little bronze prutah this afternoon, and you can look forward to more "support" in the future. Thanks again for having a great site.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Help identifying coin - elephant and man
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2021, 10:00:48 pm »
Thanks Thomas L3!
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