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Author Topic: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides  (Read 1596 times)

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Offline traveler

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Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« on: July 25, 2018, 12:10:52 am »
Hello all,

This light miliarense is up for sale, and I'm not buying it. The stated weight is 4.29g, which is quite close to the theoretical weight of 4.50g.

It's been encapsulated by NGC so the authenticity should not be in question. I'm just very puzzled by the raised bumps on both sides of the coin, which is described to be "likely from an improperly prepared alloy". But weren't silquae and miliarenses struck from pure silver?

I've never seen a siliqua or miliarense with such raised bumps before. My understanding is that the raised bumps are due to internal corrosion which suggest the coin is a fourree.

Does anyone have any insight on what's going on with this coin, or has anyone seen anything like it?

Offline *Alex

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2018, 06:07:37 am »
Fire damage?  ???

Alex

Offline Dominic T

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2018, 07:36:01 am »
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=90146.0
Maybe you will find some clues in that discussion:
DT


Offline romeman

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2018, 08:42:56 am »
This is a very rare phenomenon in Roman silver. The underlying cause is most probably impurities in the silver. This phenomenon is seen also in other specimens from the same emission, the same officina. Apparently a small batch of silver suffered contamination, and the coins that were struck develop bumps as the impurities corrode and expand (that's how I interpret it).

As it so happens, I have a paper in press (in Jahrbuch für Numismatik und Geldgeschichte) revising all silver emissions from Constantinople under Constantine I. It includes this emission as well. The paper will be out by the end of the year.

A similar appearance is seen in a silver fraction struck for the inauguration of Constantinopolis in 330. I have not had the specimen in hand, so I cannot say if the pits are caused by impurities of if they are simply pits created by force from the obverse side.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2018, 04:20:21 pm »
Most often when you see bumps like these, the coin is a fourree and the bronze is corroding beneath the silver plate.

I believe the second most common cause for large bumps like these is fire damage. Gas bubbles within the flan expand in the heat, leaving bumps like these.

All the coins I have handled with multiple large bumps like these were one or the other.
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Offline romeman

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2018, 05:03:15 pm »
Yes, fire might well be the reason. But in a struck silver coin, there would be no air bubbles. Trapped pieces of other material might, however, turn into gas or release gas, especially if strongly heated.

I have studied the Milan specimen under stereo microscope and it is not a fourree.

There are around 2,000 silver specimens struck under Constantine known today (that is, in my data base). Of these, only two specimens show these internal expansion "blisters". Both are RIC VII Constantinople no 131, officina A. None show obvious signs of fire damage. There are many fire damaged specimens among the 2,000 - I just published several such damaged specimens in my paper on the FELICITAS ROMANORVM - but they do not show any blisters.

So although fire cannot be ruled out as the cause for the blisters, in my view corrosion is a more likely cause. These silver pieces are usually crystallized (technically speaking "granulated" is the correct term, but I prefer the more descriptive crystallized - see images below), and impurities move in the metal and accumulate between silver crystals ( a light green powdery substance is sometimes seen between the crystals). I have no idea what kind of impurities caused the blisters.


Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2018, 07:38:00 pm »
Yes, fire might well be the reason. But in a struck silver coin, there would be no air bubbles.

Coins are struck on cast flans. A cast flan is going to have air bubbles within. Striking a cast flan is not going to make that air trapped within disappear. I have studied a hoard of fire damaged coins. The exterior of the hoard was a mass of melted destroyed coins. Within there were whole coins, some more damaged than others. Some wavy or bent. Many brittle and fragile. Many with with air bubbles. If you press on the bumps on a fire damaged coin, they are hollow, full of nothing but air, and will collapse. If the top of the bubble breaks off, there will be an empty round air bubble shaped shaped hole below. Clearly created by expanding gas. I do not know what might be trapped within the flan other than air, that would turn into an expanding gas in a fire. Nothing is coming to mind.
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Offline shanxi

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2018, 08:32:23 pm »
I do not know what might be trapped within the flan other than air, that would turn into an expanding gas in a fire. Nothing is coming to mind.


Probably this has nothing to do with the coin shown. But e.g. Malachite decomposes at 380°C and releases large amounts of CO2 and gaseous water. 

Offline traveler

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2018, 09:02:47 pm »
Thanks all for your responses.

I thought fire damaged coins would show tell tale signs like warped flans but it looks like it's not necessarily so. I can certainly say I'm learning alot from the discussion.

Offline bpmurphy

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2018, 10:50:34 pm »
Just for clarification, we did do a specific gravity test on this coin and it was not a fourre.

Barry Murphy.

Offline romeman

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2018, 05:33:25 am »
It might be of interest to note that the blisters on the obverse and those on the reverses are in different places. The reason is that the pressure did not originate centrally in the flan (that would also have caused larger bumps, affecting the coin on both sides), but that whatever expanded was situated just underneath the non-crystallized surface layer. Don't ask me why that layer is there, in the majority of perhaps even all silver "coins" from the late antiquity (and before and after as well, and certainly not only in Roman coins).

In the section figured above, the metallurgist (a professional metallurgist) noted the scattered white areas between the crystals, but could not determine their composition. But one thing is certain, they are the result of migration of molecules, resulting in separation of silver and these substances. Whatever they are (AgCl is one possibility), they show that small molecules (and maybe large) migrate in the metal. Accordingly, both oxygen and water can slowly move through the metal. That must be taken into account when we discuss the possibility of impurities and how they can expand, either over time, i.e. corrosion, or instantly, as when strongly heated and they gasify.

I know of at least one ongoing study dealing with the surface layer of late antique coins. Perhaps some new insights will be gained.

Meanwhile, the images attached tell a story (they are a small sample of numerous similar instances). The little silver piece shows areas where the surface silver has flaked off, revealing the crystallized core material. Next, the face is Constantine's, from the famous Munich medallion (my photo). Note how the surface layer has partly flaked off, revealing the underlying core material (the crystallization is not clear due to long time wear and polishing). Finally, another detail of the broken Constantius II siliqua, courtesy "timka".

The blisters can be explained by the original inclusion or subsequent formation of small specks of impurities under the surface layer, expanding either through corrosion (my preferred hypothesis) or through fire exposure. The idea of trapped air is difficult to reconcile with the evidence of migration resulting in concentration or diffusion of molecules through the silver. Once crystallization had occurred, any trapped air (and thus under pressure) would simply spread out evenly or evaporate.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2018, 03:08:22 pm »
...Once crystallization had occurred, any trapped air (and thus under pressure) would simply spread out evenly or evaporate...

Yes, but the fire usually happened before the coin was exposed to the elements and the centuries, when the coin was still fairly new, before crystallization.

I believe the initial difference between the surface layer and the core are a result of striking. Of course, the difference often increases with time. Anyone who has handled a lot of ancient coins has probably seen at least one coin with perfectly normal surfaces but when broken appears to be hollow and filled with white powder that visually does not resemble silver at all.
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2018, 04:28:49 pm »
There could be inclusions within the metal made of something which broke down over the centuries.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2018, 07:45:51 pm »
Since they aren't fourree and don't have other signs of fire damage, I think you are right.
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Offline romeman

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2018, 04:01:09 am »
This phenomenon is seen also in other specimens from the same emission, the same officina. Apparently a small batch of silver suffered contamination, and the coins that were struck develop bumps as the impurities corrode and expand (that's how I interpret it).

Robert Brenchley responds: "There could be inclusions within the metal made of something which broke down over the centuries."

Joe Sermani  responds: "Since they aren't fourree and don't have other signs of fire damage, I think you are right."

As I understand it, we now all agree that the most likely cause for the blisters is long-term corrosion (break-down if you wish) of impurities in the silver.

I think the fact that the blisters occur only in RIC VII Constantinople no. 131 officina A is the key. We may never know the nature of the contamination of the silver batch unless we can study a blistered specimen through a variety of non-invasive methods. Not even I would like to cut one of the specimens in pieces in an attempt to get an answer.

Offline jmuona

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2018, 05:24:28 pm »
One thing to remember is that once the silver content in the bullion is less than 90% (about), the remaining 10% (usually mostly copper) does not anymore mix evenly with the silver but rather forms larger cell/thread like deposits in the silver.The surface "enrichment" trick used in mints was based on this. Once the coin had been in acid, the coppery cells in the surface layer emptied and when the flan was then struck, a pure silver surface created for a coin with lower silver content in the core.
Perhaps the different melting points of the metals (remember, they act separately in this situation) could create gas-like effects in high temperature? In any case the coppery deposits are trapped under an artificially created pure silver surface.

Offline SC

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2018, 05:02:22 pm »
The bubbles or blisters found in metal that has melted, or begun to melt, in a fire are often caused by hydrogen released from water molecules trapped in the original metal. 

I don't know where that water comes from though.  Natural component of the alloy?  Enters during the smelting or casting process? 

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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2018, 08:51:09 pm »
How do you know this is true?

I am aware that heating water makes water vapor. Water vapor could create bubbles. I don't know that heating water releases hydrogen. Maybe this happens at a higher temperature than the boiling point? 

I also think a simple air bubble is more like to survive than water within the metal through casting the flan and striking, but I don't really know.
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Offline shanxi

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2018, 09:24:16 pm »
The bubbles or blisters found in metal that has melted, or begun to melt, in a fire are often caused by hydrogen released from water molecules trapped in the original metal.  

The release of hydrogen requires a redox reaction. Reduction of H(+1) to H2 combined with the oxidation of the metal.

This happens for metals like sodium at room temperature and e.g. for iron at hot tempertures.

It will not happen for copper or silver even at elevated temperatures typical for a fire. Both metals are too precious.


Offline SC

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Re: Miliarense with raised bumps on both sides
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2018, 06:11:41 pm »
Ah, I have seen reports of it happening in iron, steel and aluminium.  Didn't know it won't apply to copper or silver.

Here is one related articles but there are more if you goggle blistering in aluminium or steel.

http://www.foundryworld.com/uploadfile/2008111840747221.pdf


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