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Author Topic: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!  (Read 3098 times)

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Offline Ecgþeow

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Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« on: December 25, 2005, 08:59:30 pm »
Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah to everyone! 
:Aramaic_het: :Judean_alef_1: :Aramaic_mem: :Aramaic_sin:     :Aramaic_gimel: :Aramaic_het:

May you all have a fruitful and enjoyble (coin filled) holiday surrounded by your family.
(Hopefully, I'll get some nice Maccabean coins this year for Channukah ;D)

 :Judean_kaf_3: :Judean_alef_1: :Judean_zan_1:

Offline Salem Alshdaifat

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2005, 10:52:27 pm »
 :Judean_mah_3: :Judean_waw_1: :Judean_lam_2: :Judean_shin_1:
Merry christmas Zach and Happy Channukah for you and all Forums, may God bring peace at land and happiness .
Sallam, Shloom, Peace.
 :Judean_mah_3: :Judean_lam_2: :Judean_alef_2: :Judean_shin_1:

dolcinus

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2005, 08:48:16 am »
Mazel Tov ve Heag SammeaH Hanukka aleihem!!!
Happy Christmas to all!!!
There are some expert can say to me the style and the period of this half shekel (Tyre or Jerusalaim?)

It has a good dark patina.

Offline Ecgþeow

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2005, 01:11:58 pm »
Unfortunately, all the writing is gone, including the monogram, making it dificult to tell where it was minted.  Because of the seemingly low quality, my guess is Jerusalem.  But that is only a guess, someone should probably verify that.
Remember, there is some debate over whether or notr the "shekel of Tyre" was ever even minted in Jerusalem.  That is the most likely place in the later years, but it could have remained in Tyre.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2005, 01:58:24 pm »
 It's worn but the style seems reasonable. The 'barbarous' coins could easily have been minted in Jerusalem, since it was the Temple which needed them, and they had a large very amount of silver in the treasury which could have been used. My guess for the mint city of the later official shekels would be Caesarea, unless it was further afield in Antioch, where they obviously minted silver anyway; the Romans controlled everything else, even keepong the High Priest's official robes under lock and key, with the implied threat that if he didn't behave, they wouldn't hand them over for the next festival. I wouldn't have thought they'd have risked having something as important as a silver mint in a turbulent city like Jerusalem.
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Offline Ecgþeow

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2005, 02:35:25 pm »
I could see Jerusalem, as it was the only place where the coin was really used at that point, but why Antioch or CaesareaAntioch really had no reason to mint them.  Caesarea, maybe, because of Herod's involvement with rebuilding the Temple, but if the right to mint silver were really taken away from Tyre, Caesarea seems very far out of the way, and Antioch much more so.  If Jerusalem was the only place it was needed, it makes sense that the coins would be minted there, cutting transportation costs and all of that.  The minting of the shekel was tollerated because if it were taken away, the Jews of Jerusalem would be sure to revolt.  The Romans were not that stupid as to deliberately cause a revolt.  So a simple appeasement would not be above them.  It would not be a huge problem to let the Temple mint its own coins for religious ceremony.  It just seems to far away for Antioch or Caesarea to have any connection to it.
What, if any, information is there about hoards found of the coins?

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2005, 06:17:11 pm »
There's a page on a large hoard at http://www.begedivri.com/shekel/teachings/kadman.htm . I suggested Caesarea because it was the seat of the Prefect of Judea, who would be highly likely to keep such a mint under strict control. There would also have been riots if the Yom Kippur rituals, for instance, failed to take place because the Prefect wouldn't hand over the HP's robes, but the implied threat was there. Because the Temple was so central to the life of Judea, which was essentially a temple state, the Romans would have put all the pressure they could on the authorities there to cooperate. Antioch could be another possibility simply because it was a Roman mint city not too far away; if coin could be brought from Tyre, it could also be brought from there.
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Offline Ecgþeow

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2005, 06:56:50 pm »
Tyre is different from Antioch because it was never 'chosen' as a place where the shekel would be minted.  It just so happened that Tyre was the only remaining producer of a coin pure enough to meet Temple standards.  If Tyre lost the right to mint the shekel, which did not necessarily happen, then they would need to choose a place to continue the minting of the coins, as discontinuing the shekel was not an option.  It would naturally make sense to make the mint closer to the Temple, as that was the coin's only remaining purpose.  This is why Jerusalem would be most probable.  However, I could see Caesarea, as it was the Roman city of Judaea, and as the seat of government, It would be prudent to also have the mint close to governmental control.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2005, 08:17:22 am »
I think there's one other point against Jerusalem; they may have felt that the commandment to have a pure silver coin overrode the commandment to avoid images, but if the mint was moved to Jerusalem, that would have put Jews in charge, and it's odd that the type remained unchanged.
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dolcinus

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2005, 01:09:57 pm »
Thank you Zam, Thank you Robert!!!
You are an incredible sources of informations!!!! ;D ;D ;D
I'm feeling really ignorant.... :( :(

Offline Ecgþeow

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2005, 01:16:10 pm »
Robert, You are right, that is odd.  But it would be odd, no matter where the coin was minted, as Jews had to have been involved, and would have made their concerns known.  If it were Caesarea, Herod, as a Jew, would have known, and if people cared enough, he would have changed it.  It may just be that the Jews did not care at this point, and they naturally assumed that for a coin to be sure of having pure silver, it needed to be stamped with Melqarth, just as a matter of custom.  We know for a fact that they were not so zealous about this image deal at this point.  While they would still object to any images in the Temple, they had no problem with seeing the Menorah and the Showbread table on their coins.  The religious fervor took over much later, as they were approaching the revolt.  Then, it was deemed unacceptable to portray the Menorah, and so only portrayed the Temple amphorae on their coins, and, by the same token, only rejected the Melqarth image as they neared the revolt.  So it is not improbable that the coins would be minted in Jerusalem, with that cultural climate.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2005, 08:33:36 am »
Herod wasn't a 'proper' Jew; he was an Idumean, roughly from what's now the Gaza Strip. They'd been forcibly converted a couple of generations earlier, and weren't really accepted. He didn't have much respect for Torah, causing major offence, for instance, but putting an image of a golden eagle over the Temple gate. His position was pretty much that of the Hellenising Jews of the previous century, who must still have been about, though they had been out of power under the Hasmoneans, and I don't know quite what had happened to them after the Maccabean Revolt, which was a major defeat for them. After his death, there were revolts across his Jewish territories, suggesting a certain eagerness for change! It's only with Herod Agrippa I the third generation of the family, that we get a ruler who was actually acceptable to strict Jews.

The big problem I see with the idea of a mint in Jerusalem is that it was a turbulent city, subject to regular large-scale rioting, the Jews had a history of revolts, and I'd have thought that the Romans would have seen it as too much of a hostage to fortune. The Jews had never minted silver, and may well never had permission to do so, though they'd also have needed cooperation from outside to import it. A Roman client king like Herod had very limited autonomy, and certainly couldn't just set up a mint to suit himself.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline Ecgþeow

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2005, 12:26:36 pm »
no, you're right, he couldn't just set one up by himself, but his good buddy Augustus would be willing to help if he was assured that a Jerusalem mint would not lead to problems.  Herod, even though an Idumaean, still had knowledge of the laws, and was relatively respectful of them, even though his subjects thought otherwise, until his later years.  The switch to Jerusalem would have happened in his early days when he was still (unsuccessfully) trying to gain favor amonst the Jews by doing things like rebuild the Temple.  THe Jews hated him from the beginning, and no matter what he did, he couldn't change that.  Eventually, his cruelty built up, and he stopped trying to be liked.  Relocating the mint to Jerusalem may just have been another early favor done by him with the blessing of Augustus for the Jews.  Like I said before, the reason why the images didn't change may just be that the Jews of the time were in a less zealous climate in which custom won.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2005, 03:33:52 pm »
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one! Happy New Year.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline Ecgþeow

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Re: Merry Christmas and Happy Channukah!
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2005, 03:43:37 pm »
agreed.  :)

Happy New Year to you, too!

 

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