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Author Topic: Verica Lancing. AR minim. c.AD10-40. 9mm.  (Read 4492 times)

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Offline Lee S

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Verica Lancing. AR minim. c.AD10-40. 9mm.
« on: December 21, 2012, 05:40:24 pm »
Hi Guys,

  I need some help on another UK metal detector find please....

The coin is 9mm, 270deg. die rotation, and very pretty...

  The closest I have found are from the Iceni tribe, Queen Boudicca, Celticized head right, Celticized horse right.

   Am I on the right track here? and can anyone give me a pointer where I can pin down this pretty little coin better please??

   Thanks in advance...

Lee S.

Offline Lee S

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2012, 04:16:26 am »
Bumping!!!

Offline Lee S

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2012, 02:25:07 pm »
I have now returned to Sweden from the UK, and have taken 2 slightly better photographs...

  Any help here will be MOST well received... I love this little coin, but dearly want to ID it..
 
 I have also contacted the seller and she found it in Berkshire this summer, which may help with the ID... I have got reasonably competent at IDing Greeks, and with all the online tools available Roman coins are not too bad if you can read them, but these little Celtic buggers are difficult to to track down... There seems to be a few good data bases for Celtic coins, but either I am doing it wrong, or unless you already know who, what and where it is hard to find anything... So any help or pointers where I might be able to get some help IDing this and my other recent acquisition ( https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=84342.0 ) will earn my eternal gratitude!!

  Lee. 

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2012, 04:18:44 pm »
Dear Lee S. and Board,

Rest assured, your post has not gone unnoticed.  I had spent a while a few days ago researching your coin on the Celtic Coin Index (CCI; at Oxford), but due to their insufficient search engine, I had to browse through tons of coins without finding any matches. 

I agree your piece does look British in origin.  And yes, the Berkshire findsite does help a lot, although I wasn't able to find matches yet among the tribes of the Atrebates or Regni. 


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan           

Offline Lee S

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2012, 05:14:00 pm »
Hi Mark,

  Many thanks for your time, and it is reassuring to know that it is not just me that has problems with the current data bases of Celtic coins!!

   Can you tell me what the Denomination is likely to be for such a small coin? I am confused between "½ unit" , "½ stater" and such like....

  I have no problem with doing the leg-work to identify my own coins, ( indeed, that can be half the fun!!) , but it gets very frustrating when you dont know where to start!! LOL!

 Anyway, thanks again, and a very Merry Christmas and happy new year to you! ( And to all the wonderful folks on Forvm!! ) ;D

stairman

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2012, 06:42:54 pm »
Lee,

I recieved a copy of "Ancient British Coins" for Christmas. Compiled by Liz Cottam, Philip de Jersy, Chris Rudd and John Sills.

I have looked through it and don't see a match yet.

I will look again later.

One thing it does say, if you have a coin you can't identify, email Liz for help. That might not be a bad idea.

I'm not sure if Forum's rules allow me to post her email address, so will wait to find out.

Respectfully,

Sean

Offline Lee S

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 09:45:29 am »
Hi Sean,

  That sounds like a great idea!! , I don't see there being a problem if you "private message"me with Liz Cottam's email , then I can contact her, and report back here should I receive any help...

  ( It is now even more exciting thinking I have picked up something a little bit unusual  ;D  )

  Thanks once more for the help !!!

stairman

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2012, 11:27:11 am »
Lee,

PM sent. I think. Let me know if you don't recieve it, as I'm still feeling my way around here.

Please let us know what you find out.

Sean

Offline Lee S

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 09:34:22 am »
Well, that was very swift and helpful!!

I mailed Liz early this morning, and received this reply just a couple of hours later...

" Hi Lee

Thank you for your email.

Congratulations on your discovery! Your coin looks similar in style to the Dias Pegasus silver unit of the Catuvellauni tribe, ABC 2745. We have only had one other example, not in particularly great condition, but the head on your coin seems to have a similar long nose with the ear like ABC 2748. The reverse appears to be a horse leaping right with some possible pseudo-legend above, although this could conceivably be the wing of the Pegasus, but if I look the second picture it looks as though there could be a legend below the horse - maybe more like an ABC 2616 Tasciovanos Berkshire Wreath, with a right facing horse?

 It could well be an unrecorded type, but I'd really need to see it to be more specific, often it is easier to see more with the coin in the hand than on a photo.

Well done, Lee, on your discovery, I hope that I will have the opportunity to examine the coin more closely in the flesh!
Best wishes
Liz "

  So it looks like I may have to send the coin back over to its homeland to get an exact ID...

  Thanks for the help Sean... It also looks like perhaps I have to add "Ancient British Coins"  to my wish list if I intend to get my hands on more of these wonderful coins  +++

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2012, 11:04:45 am »
Dear Lee S., Sean, & Board,

Wonderful news from Liz!  I have a little information of my own this morning, from Robert Van Arsdell:

"Hi Mark,


I took a second look at the silver coin - something about it DID look familiar.

It might be a silver type of Andoco. The obverse looks roughly like V1871 and the reverse like V1873. Those are bronze types however, and the 9mm diameter is a problem, but maybe it's an unknown silver half unit.

Hope this is helpful.


Best regards,

Bob Van Arsdell"

**************************

There is indeed a strong resemblance to the obverse of VA 1871.01:
 
http://www.finds.org.uk/CCI/details.php?coin_num=67.0157

Here is an example of VA 1873.01:

http://www.finds.org.uk/CCI/details.php?coin_num=01.0213

So we have some consensus that the Catuvellauni/Trinovantes tribes were possibly involved.


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan

 

stairman

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 12:11:23 pm »
Mark,

Interesting development.

I had looked at those, but continued on as the size and metal was different.

Thank you for posting.

Respectfully,

Sean

Offline Lee S

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2012, 06:48:37 am »
Thank you very much Mark...

  I have forwarded your message to Liz, along with some better photos of the coin with lighting from different angles, and offered to send her the coin if she would like to examine it in hand....

  I will add a couple of the new photos here which show a little more detail, and more then shall put my coins back to bed for this year and start preparing for our New Years Eve party..  ;D

   Wishing you all a happy, safe and lucky 2013!!

Lee.

Offline Lee S

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2013, 06:39:33 am »
Well, Liz From Celtic Coins pinned down my enigmatic little coin, unfortunately it is not an unknown, but I am very happy to have a definite ID for it....

http://www.finds.org.uk/CCI/details.php?coin_num=91.0039


A minim of the Atrebates tribe, under Verica!

    Thanks to everyone who has helped me try and ID this, and Well done Liz for the last word!!
 +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2013, 09:59:58 am »
Dear Lee S. and Board,

That's it alright!  I had spent a lot of time looking at the Atrebates during my first searches.  Liz's CCI record looks very familiar, but in my haste, I probably discounted it as something different because of the off-centered reverse.  Who knows, your coin may in fact be from the same die pair.  

Regardless of whether your coin was an unknown type or not, you have obtained a fascinating and important find, and even know approximately where it was found, your small contribution to British Celtic numismatics!  Liz should indeed be commended for her perseverance and sharp eye---and Sean and yourself,  for your combined enthusiasm and efforts to reach a solution as well!

Happy New Year!


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan  

Offline Lee S

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2013, 05:58:09 am »
Hi Guys....

  I wanted to give you an update on this elusive little Minim which I recieved so much help tracking down... Another couple have surfaced since, so I thought I would post the extract from the catalogue one of them appears in as It makes interesting reading... ( I hope this is OK Joe... If not please delete this post...)

21. Verica Lancing. SO8. c.AD10-40. AR minim.

8mm. 0.28g. Insular-style male head r, with moustache
and long flowing hair combed back from forehead,
beaded border./
 Chubby horse with beaded mane
prancing r, [VIR]I above, [F retrograde] and CO below,
beaded border. ABC 1289, VA 480 (not illustrated),
BMC—, S 142 (not illustrated).
 VF/Good VF, good weight, toned silver, male profile visible, bonny horse, sharp
CO. First we’ve had and first we’ve seen offered for sale.
RRRR only two others in CCI, both in museum

Our description of this fascinating and most elusive little coin
is based mainly on the images in Ancient British Coins (ABC
1289, p.74), because it is a type that has rarely been illustrated
and because the obverse of ours doesn’t show the full head. The
head is particularly interesting and appears to be that of an
ancient Briton, perhaps even a mini-portrait of Verica himself.
Dr Simon Bean describes the head as ‘moustached’ and,
looking again at the photo of ABC 1289, I think he’s right. My
guess is that this Verica head may have been copied from the socalled
Vercingetorix head on a Roman Republican silver
denarius of L.Hostilius Saserna, 48 BC (Sear RCV 418, RRC
448/2).
   Precisely how many specimens of the Verica Lancing
minim have been discovered and are still around is uncertain.
According to the CCI there are only two others apart from ours
– CCI 91.0039 (FL 573), 0.26g, found near Chichester in
1990, and CCI 92.0533 (FL 616 = ABC 1289), 0.28g, found
near Chichester in 1992, both in the Ian Finney collection and
both now in Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery (see David
Symonds, Num. Circ. May 191, p.113, fig. 3, and July 1993,
p.188-189, fig. 5). Robert Van Arsdell (1989) classes the type
as ‘very rare’ (16-30 recorded) and says: “Reports of many finds
at Wanborough, but cannot be confirmed. Rarity provided via
trade survey” (Celtic Coinage of Britain, p.159). But I find this
hard to believe; if 16-30 had been found at Wanborough,
Surrey, 1984-85, where did they all go? Why haven’t we seen
any over the past 25 years? Why doesn’t Bob list any in his
Wanborough estimates (1989, p.543-544)? Why doesn’t Simon
Bean mention any in his Wanborough estimates (2000, p.275-
277)? And why hasn’t the CCI picked up any more?
Evans p.184
The only other Verica Lancing minim I know about (apart
from ours and Finney’s two) is the one that came out of the
Lancing Down hoard, Sussex, in 1838, illustrated by a woodcut
in John Evans, The Coins of the Ancient Britons, 1864, p.184.
I don’t know where this coin is now. Our specimen was
unearthed by a metal detectorist near Findon, West Sussex,
only a few miles from Lancing Down. Finally, I should point
out that the horse on our Verica Lancing minim appears to
have three forelegs. Or is one of them a letter I?

Offline Lee S

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2013, 06:12:16 am »
Here are the 4 I have pictures of, 1 is in the Birmingham Museum, 2 and 3 are the ones sold this year and 4 is mine.... I believe they could all be die matches... ( although it is hard to tell from photos, they seem uncannily similar.... ) any opinions?  ;D

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2013, 10:01:49 am »
Dear Lee S. and Board,

Impressive.  I am glad you did this!  I have studied all four specimens and would have to agree that they most likely were all struck from the same die pair.   

Of course, the head being of Verica is by far a more tenuous matter!

As for the Wanborough sightings, that may be something worth asking Robert Van Arsdell himself about.  Who knows, it might be a line of research easier to pursue now than it was for him back in the day.   

Keep up the good work!


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan

stairman

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Re: Celtic, 9mm
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2013, 11:40:51 pm »
Thanks for the info Lee.

Somehow I missed your post on Jan 3, saying you had an ID on it.

I checked the page number in your post and there it is. I must've skimmed right over it.

Thanks again

Offline Lee S

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Re: Verica Lancing. AR minim. c.AD10-40. 9mm.
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2013, 03:58:19 pm »
Could one of the Mods please move this thread to the Celtic board.... I believe it has gone beyond ID help, and now deserves a place over there!!  ;D +++ ;D

  Have a nice weekend Guys!

;D +++ ;D

Lee.

 

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