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Author Topic: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?  (Read 29280 times)

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Offline moonmoth

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Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« on: January 17, 2011, 02:03:16 pm »
I am reading one of my Christmas presents, Mary Beard's "Pompeii, the Life of a Roman Town."  In the introduction, she says that a coin was found in a context that rules out it being dropped by later looters, and that experts now think the coin could not have been minted before September 79.

Does anyone know what this coin is?

Thanks ..  Bill
"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2011, 02:18:54 pm »
It must be an aureus or denarius of Titus with acclamation IMP XV, and there must be a dated inscription showing that by a certain date in Sept. 79 Titus was still only IMP XIIII. Therefore a coin with IMP XV can only have been struck after that date.

I have seen this argument before, but can't recall where, nor the exact details of the inscription and coin in question. Surely Mary Beard cites a source?
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Offline moonmoth

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2011, 03:26:06 pm »
There is a detailed set of recommendations for further reading, by chapter, giving an outline of where source information can be found, but no footnotes or chapter notes as such and no source given for that particular statement.

Bill
"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

Offline benito

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2011, 03:53:08 pm »
Why not a sestertius ?, the one inaugurating the Flavian Colosseum among others. Or coins in other metals with the titles COS VIII or TR P X .
BTW. If you ever go to Pompei search for graffiti.They can be fun.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2011, 04:14:48 pm »
It is beyond question that Vesuvius erupted in 79 AD, sometime after Vespasian's death and Titus' accession on 23 June 79.

The only question is whether the month date of August given in our sources might not be corrupt, the true date being October or November 79.
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Offline David Atherton

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2011, 06:19:39 am »
I could not find anything about this coin online. Like Curtis I assume it is a denarius or aureus of Titus dated IMP XV (September of 79).

I did find this little blurb about garum being used to date the eruption which indicates the reading of the coin date is disputed: [BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Offline moonmoth

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2011, 11:36:40 am »
Thanks - that's an interesting article, even with fish "known as boops boops,"  and it does say that the coin in question "seemed to refer to the 15th imperiatorial acclamation of Titus, believed to have occurred on Sept. 7, 79 A.D" - just as Curtis suggests.  But it also says that the coin is "hardly readable," according to "Teresa Giove, a coin expert at Naples' Archaeological Museum".  So perhaps that is where the coin is.

The odd fish name seems to be right enough, once it is correctly capitalised as Boops boops.  This is not some odd nickname related to Betty Boop, but a Linnaic genus and species classification.  It's a type of sea bream which is fished in the Mediterranean.

Bill
"... A form of twisted symbolical bedsock ... the true purpose of which, as they realised at first glance, would never (alas) be revealed to mankind."

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2011, 03:46:51 pm »
Very interesting.  This has raised a question for me.  Did they mint coins only AFTER the acclamation with IMP XV or did the start producing these before the actual date in anticipation? 

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2011, 04:08:15 pm »
Since acclamations were celebrations of victories whose achievement could not be planned or predicted, no one knew when a new acclamation might be coiming and coins could not be prepared in advance!
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2011, 04:41:32 pm »
Since acclamations were celebrations of victories whose achievement could not be planned or predicted, no one knew when a new acclamation might be coiming and coins could not be prepared in advance!

Of course, but surely Titus would have known he'd be acclaimed IMP XV at least a few days or weeks in advance.  I guess I'm trying to compare it to what happens with modern coins.  They begin to mint in anticipation of the Olympics or the Queens birthday or whatever else they are celebrating.   

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2011, 04:47:39 pm »
@moonmoth

Here is the DNA sequence of the mitochondrial cytochrome B of Boops boops:

Primer   
H 15149 ad  GCI CTT CAR AAT GAY AAT TGT CCT CA 
L 14735  AAA AAC CAC CGT TGT TAT TCA ACT

>AJ319810
atggctagcc ttcgaaaaac gcacccccta ttaaaaattg ctaatcacgc attagttgat
ctccctgcac catccaatat ttccgtctga tgaaattttg gttccctgct tggcctctgt
cttatttccc agctccttac agggctattc ctcgccatgc actatacctc cgatatcgcc
acagccttct cttccgttgc ccacatctgc cgagatgtaa actatggctg actcatccga
aacctacatg ccaacggagc atctttcttc ttcatctgca tttaccttca catcggccga
ggactttact acggctcgta cctttacaaa gaaacctgaa atattggggt cgttctcctc
ctcctagtta taggaaccgc cttcgtaggc tatgttctcc catgaggaca aatgtccttc tgaggagc

Don't ask me for the detailed meaning, but it is amazing, isn't it?

Jochen

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2011, 05:21:39 pm »
Since acclamations were celebrations of victories whose achievement could not be planned or predicted, no one knew when a new acclamation might be coiming and coins could not be prepared in advance!

Of course, but surely Titus would have known he'd be acclaimed IMP XV at least a few days or weeks in advance.  I guess I'm trying to compare it to what happens with modern coins.  They begin to mint in anticipation of the Olympics or the Queens birthday or whatever else they are celebrating.   

No! The acclamation was accorded on the battlefield immediately after the victory, so no one knew when a new acclamation might be coming. As soon as the news reached Rome, the Senate would approve the acclamation and the mint would begin to record it on coins.
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Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2011, 10:29:39 pm »
Okay so it goes by the date the soldiers acclaim and not when the senate passes a motion.  Thanks.

Offline David Atherton

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2011, 06:27:07 am »
I thought I would Resurrect this old topic to see if anyone was able to track down which coin type of Titus is throwing the eruption date into confusion. If anyone knows I would certainly like to hear about it.

Offline commodus

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2011, 03:47:34 pm »
For a very long time the date was almost universally thought to be late November, 79 AD (Nov. 23 is the date older sources often give). Then, in the 20th century, Aug. 24, 79 AD became the accepted date. The August date is based on a remark of Pliny made some years after the fact, but I have no idea where the November date comes from. However, there are arguments for the later date based upon the clothing of the victims, the fact that summer fruits are mostly found in dried form, and so forth, and there are arguments for the August date based on pollen and probably other factors. The coin just repoens and old debate -- did the eruption occur in the late summer or in autumn? I'd be very interested to see an image of this coin, but I can't find one anyplace.
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2011, 04:47:18 pm »
Pliny the Younger describes the eruption and gives the date in a famous letter to the historian Tacitus, but apparently the date is corrupt in the manuscripts, whence the problem.

Here is what Wikipedia says in its article on Mt. Vesuvius:

The year of the eruption of AD 79 was referred to by contemporary writers (apart from being described by Pliny) and has never been seriously questioned, being determined by the well-known events of the reign of Titus. Vespasian died that year. When Titus visited Pompeii to give orders for the relief of the displaced population, he was the sole ruler. In the year after the eruption, 80 AD, he faced another disaster, a great fire at Rome.

The time of year is stated once in one historical document, the first letter of Pliny the Younger to Tacitus,[50] as "nonum kal. Septembres", which is not a produced meaning and has no syntax (the grammarians say, indeclinable), but would seem to be an abbreviation of a standard date, which was an abbreviation. By 79 the Julian Calendar was in use. The inscribing of dates was abbreviational and formulaic. Whether anyone knew exactly what the abbreviation stood for is questionable (compare English Mr. and Mrs.); certainly, literary representations such as Pliny's left out or misinterpreted key elements that would be required for the understanding of a produced meaning. Pliny's date (if it was Pliny's) would have been a.d. IX kal. sept., to be interpreted as "the ninth day before the Kalends of September", which would have been 8 days before Sept. 1, or August 24 (the Romans counted Sept. 1 as one of the nine).

August 24 is not necessarily the date given by Pliny. It represents an editorial collusion to use the text of Codex Laurentianus Mediceus (a manuscript), which also appears in the 1508 printed edition of Aldus Manutius, in all recensions since then, even though the numerous Pliny manuscripts as well as the works of other authors offer many alternatives.[58] Archaeological dissent from this view began with the work of Carlo Maria Rosini in 1797, to be followed by a succession of archaeologists putting forward evidence to the contrary. Archaeological evidence from Pompeii suggest that the town was buried about two or three months later. For example, people interred in the ashes appear to be wearing warmer clothing than the light summer clothes that would be expected in August. The fresh fruit, olives and vegetables in the shops are typical of October, and conversely the summer fruit that would have been typical of August was already being sold in dried, or conserved form. Wine fermenting jars had been sealed over, and this would have happened around the end of October. The coins found in the purse of a woman buried in the ash include a commemorative coin that should have been minted at the end of September.[59]

A 2007 study by Rolandi, De Lascio and Stefani of 20 years of data concerning wind direction at meteorological stations in Rome and Brindisi established wind patterns in the Vesuvius area above 14 kilometres (46,000 ft) with more precision than was previously known.[60] From June through August the winds blow strongly from the west, for the rest of the time, from the east. This fact was known, but the easterly winds of the eruption were considered anomalous in August, caused (conjecturally) by the weak and shifting winds of the transition. The authors established that the winds of 79 produced long depositional patterns and were therefore not weak, and that the transition occurs in September, not August. The authors therefore reject the August date as being inconsistent with the patterns of nature.

The rejection is not of Pliny's eyewitness account or of Pliny's date, whatever it was. They focus on manuscript variants looking for possible sources of copyist alteration of Pliny's date. In many manuscripts the month has been omitted. If some original had no month then the copyists may have felt obliged to provide one, but chose wrongly. The authors suggest an original date of a.d. IX kal dec (November 23) or a.d. ix kal nov (October 24) more in line with the evidence of nature. This view is currently gaining wide acceptance. In its index of volcanic activity on Earth, the Global Volcanism Program of the Smithsonian Institution takes the view that the eruption did start around October 24 (?), 79 AD and ended on October 28 ±1 day.[14]

Notes 58-9 refer to Rolandi, G.; Paone, A.; De Lascio, M.; Stefani, G. (2008). "The 79 AD eruption of Somma: the relationship between the date of the eruption and the southeast tephra dispersion". Journal of Volcanology and Geothermal Research 169: 87–98.
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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2011, 05:02:16 am »
Very interesting discussion, thank you.

Btw, I think, in order to be scientifically precise, we should write the eruption date like "AD 79 /according to J.J.Scaliger and D.Petavius/".

The former calculated the ancient chronology dates based on the World Creation Date and the latter translated these dates to the gregorian calendar
 /"Opus de doctrina temporum"/.

:)

Offline David Atherton

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2011, 07:13:39 am »
"The coins found in the purse of a woman buried in the ash include a commemorative coin that should have been minted at the end of September." Now that is indeed intriguing! Too bad they didn't mention which type it was.

Thank you for the link Curtis.

Offline commodus

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2011, 12:08:57 pm »
Another article which is rather interesting, though some of its arguments seem weak. The coin is mentioned towards the end, but not described it except to say that it is inconclusive as evidence, which seems doubtful. This is one of the reasons I'd very much like to see images of it.

The quote stating that it isn't important when the eruption occurred is simply ridiculous.

[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
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Offline Minos

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2011, 03:28:17 pm »
According to Stefani, G., "La vera data dell'eruzione", Archeo 260, 2006, pp. 10-13., it's a Titus denarius, Capricorn reverse (RIC 19). :)

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2011, 04:19:13 pm »
It can't be RIC 19 if the acclamation reads IMP XV, as RIC 19 reads IMP XIIII. The acclamation IMP XV on the coin in question is the crux around which the whole date issue revolves.
Thus, if a capricorn type with the acclamation IMP XV, it would have to be RIC 37 or 38.
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Offline Minos

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2011, 04:49:20 pm »
Sorry, I'm not very up to date, RIC 19 is based on my old edition of the book, not the recent revision (RIC 37 in this case) ;)

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2011, 05:00:20 pm »
I wonder whether the woman with the coin could have been killed at a later stage of the eruption, which would have gone on for some time. The only way to tell would be to know at shat level she was found in the ash. If she was at the bottom, she would have died at the beginning, if she was high up, it would have been later.
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Offline David Atherton

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2011, 05:49:05 pm »
Sorry, I'm not very up to date, RIC 19 is based on my old edition of the book, not the recent revision (RIC 37 in this case) ;)

Thank you for that bit of info Minos! I was thinking about that Capricorn reverse when I read it was a "commemorative" type. I too would like to see pictures of it.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Coin from Pompeii that dates the eruption of Vesuvius?
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2011, 07:53:09 pm »
John Isles, Moneta-L, 9 Oct. 2008, quoted from an article by Joanne Berry in Ad Familiares, March 2008, the journal of the UK organization Friends of Classics, presumably summarizing the article by G. Stefani that Minos cites above: the IMP XV capricorn denarius of Titus was part of a hoard of 180 silver and 40 gold coins found with the bodies of a group of victims during the excavation of the House of the Gold Bracelet on 7 June 1974 .

Minos, have you seen the Stefani article? Does it include a picture of the coin?

That the coin is "barely readable", as stated in the article Commodus links to, I consider nonsense. After all it was apparently struck just a month or two before the eruption and must be in pristine condition! Flavian denarii are almost always well struck on ample flans, so the legends are usually all on the flan and easily readable even when the coins are in worn state, let alone EF. Also there is a substantial difference between IMP XIIII and IMP XV so it's hard to imagine a denarius where that reading would be in doubt.

In the Berry article quoted by John Isles, in any case, no mention is made of any difficulty reading the coin legends, and, to respond to Robert B's's point, it is assumed that the group of victims with whom the coins were found must have perished in the main eruption.
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