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Author Topic: Another Provenance Mystery - Messene  (Read 329 times)

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Offline Virgil H

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Another Provenance Mystery - Messene
« on: March 05, 2023, 09:53:59 pm »
I got this coin in a lot. These three tags were included all related to the same coin. When I get any tags in a lot, I consider it an interesting bonus, in this case I didn't know I was getting any tags. I am trying to figure these out and I attached photos of both sides of the tags (only two are double sided). From the tags, this is an ex-BCD collection coin, but was not included in the auctions (LHS/Leu). I looked up BCD 727 and the coin is the type, but not the actual coin(s), so that at least fits.

First tag seems to be the Pegasi one. The round tag is perhaps the next one, then perhaps the square tag is the final. Then, of course, would be the unknown consignor who sold the coin as part of the lot I bought from Forum in Nov 2022. It is a nice coin, although I think the Pegasi grading is more accurate than the consignor's grading. This one is not in Sear and I don't have the Hoover volume for these. Not in Wildwinds, either. I did find the type in the BCD catalog and ACsearch.

I post only because I find it interesting. And I wonder how they knew it was actually ex-BCD collection. Pegasi doesn't mention it, nor does the round tag. I guess lower quality coins were sold off to dealers and not auctioned. But, why wouldn't the first dealer mention this? And mine ended up in a lot at the end of 2022.

It is just curious.

Virgil

Offline Curtis JJ

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Re: Another Provenance Mystery - Messene
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2023, 10:29:24 pm »
The round tag is BCD's. He bought it from Pegasi in 1998 and saved the tag, and fortunately the later buyer saved those tags. (About half of my BCD coins -- between 90 and 100 now -- came without his round tags, which I find completely infuriating. You can see a bunch photographed in my BCD Gallery: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=7851 )

(Did someone pencil in "wrong" next to the 1h die-axis on his tag?! Can't tell from the photo if that's his handwriting too. Possibly a cataloger at CNG when they acquired the BCD Pelo. II / CNG 81.2 coins & the duplicates.)

Once I figure out what BCD Pelo 727 is, I'll see if I notice any recent auction sales. Probably a group lot, so may not be traceable.

I have the Hoover, so I'll check that and send you the page or post it (and both BCD Pelo catalogs, though as you're aware, the lots are on ACSearch).

For every main catalog coins (there were 10 major sales), there were many "BCD Duplicates" (as I call them).

Peloponnesos there were probably 1000-2000 coins in the two main sales. (Similar for the two main Thessaly sales; the others were somewhat smaller.) His Pelo. and Thess. collections were huge. Tens of thousands of his coins were sold in group lots at CNG and elsewhere. (I've heard 50,000 as an estimate, but I think a lot more.) Naville, for example, sold lots of the duplicates from BCD Lokris-Phokis (NAC 55). He seems to have tried to spread his coins around to many different auctions. Naumann sold group lots of "BCD Incerta" and coins that didn't fit his other sub-collections (Akarnania & Aetolia, Boiotia, Corinth, Euboia, Lokris-Phokis, Olympia, Peloponnesos, Thessaly, and an anonymous collection of Athens AE in CNG 50 & 51).

I am unclear if he sold coins directly to dealers (not auctions), or how many. Some of his group lots at CNG had over a 1,000 coins in a lot, so there's no recognizing them from auction photos. Did he ever sell any directly to Joe? Or Ken Dorney? I suspect he may have sold some directly to Kirk Davis (he sold a lot in FPLs that I can't match to auction sales), but I can't tell if those dealers bought all theirs as groups lots (or maybe CNG & NAC sold some big groups by "private treaty" rather than auction).

The amazing thing is that, although he had the highest end coins too, and enormous numbers of lesser coins, he showed virtually the same care and scholarly attention to the ugliest, most commercially worthless coins, meticulously recording provenance and carefully writing those little round tags in identical format, and (oftentimes) taking little life-size photos and cutting them out. (I have a number of those; not all coins got them.) Some of my coins with BCD tags would barely be a "junk box" coin for many dealers.

Incidentally, I've got a Messenia Hemidrachm / Triobol from the BCD Collection (BCD Pelo. II) in my gallery:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=174583
“Collect the collectors…” John W Adams’ advice to J Orosz (Asylum 38, 2: p51)

Galleries https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=27154

Offline Curtis JJ

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Re: Another Provenance Mystery - Messene
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2023, 10:46:30 pm »
I don't see any auction sales for an ~1.99-2.01 Messene AE Chalkous, so I'm sure it was in a group lot. (You might find it eventually if you started scanning BCD group lot photos in ACSearch, but I would be confident that's actually the ex-BCD coin that goes with tag. It's a rare type, so there aren't many ~2.00 examples it could've been switched with.)

This is a cool type!

The HGC 5 type is 790. The plate coin is BCD Pelo 727.1 (many of the HGC 5 plate coins are from LHS 96). Hoover calls it rare, R1 (the lowest level of rare, which means an estimated 10-30 known examples for AEs). Attached is the page image for that type.
“Collect the collectors…” John W Adams’ advice to J Orosz (Asylum 38, 2: p51)

Galleries https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=27154

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Another Provenance Mystery - Messene
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2023, 11:00:28 pm »
Wow, thanks so much for that information. I need to look at my collection, but I think I may have one or two others with that round tag and same handwriting. Your coin is nice and mine is pretty nice, as well. The difference between the ones that were in the LHS auction and mine is those were better centered on the reverse. But there is no doubt what the coin is, I just don't have any references with that type in it. Knowing that the round tag is BCDs makes it all understandable and adds to the appeal of the coin. I always love getting old tags. This particular lot I bought from Forum a few months ago is very high quality for a lot and a total bargain on a per coin price basis. I am slowly working my way through them (and have of course looked at them all) and haven't been disappointed with any of them. It will be going in my gallery when I get it photographed. I like the term "BCD duplicates." That is precisely what this one is.

Thanks again, I love your knowledge and enthusiasm in this area and it has made me much more aware of and interested in provanence.

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Another Provenance Mystery - Messene
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2023, 11:10:34 pm »
I typed that before seeing your second response. It is definitely Hoover 590. I did see the auction 727.1 listing. No doubt as to what coin mine is. Also the first time I saw Grandjean as a reference. That looks good for coins of The Peloponnesos. I think this is my first or second from that region and one of the reasons I like lots is I get coins from places I normally am not really looking for. Thanks for that scan. I can see a new Hoover in my life soon, but I also want the one with Sicily. I have four of them so far. Never enough books!

Thanks again,
Virgil

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Another Provenance Mystery - Messene
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2023, 11:31:23 pm »
Also, just noticed your comment on the (wrong) penciled in on the BCD tag. I wondered about that. It does look like thin pencil. It says:

1' (wrong)
1-99

I had no idea what the 1' meant. I assume the 1-99 is a date. My coin is close to 1 o'clock, maybe 2 o'clock. But, if is die axis, I wouldn't call 1 o'clock very wrong.

Virgil

 

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