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Author Topic: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?  (Read 3561 times)

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Mark Farrell

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Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« on: March 29, 2007, 01:17:20 pm »
Here is a really well preserved Gordian. Obv is laureate, cuirassed bust r., seen from behind, AVTK MANT GORDIANOC AV (I think, last 3-4 characters are odd). The detail is quite sharp -- it feels astonishing in the hand! Size is 27 mm, 9.42g.

The reverse gets interesting. It appears to be overstruck. I thought at first it was double struck, but two things concerned me with this theory:

1. I cannot find any city with a combination of the left and right legends: on left ICITWN, on right POLEIT. The POLEIT would lead me toward any of the mints that end with "polis", with perhaps WN in the exergue (which is missing, and also terminates the legend on the left).

2. The letter forms are very different between the left and right legends. Both legends contain an "I" and a "T". On the left, the characters have a much more pronounced serif and are thicker / heavier. Further, the "T" on the left does not have the graceful tapering as it ascends toward the cross bar, as does the "T" in the right legend. Perhaps the difference is not from the die but from the strike?

3. (new) Also, the size of the beaded border on the left seems different from that on the right.

So, to me it looks like the reverse was overstruck (I could be way off on this one!), but only on the left side. Are there any detectives out there who could help me deciper this coin? Do you agree that the coin is overstruck vs. double struck?

Your help is much appreciated.

Mark

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2007, 01:49:35 pm »
According to Kraay's theory suggested in conversation to me, your coin stuck in the obv. die and was struck a second time on the rev. with a second rev. die that was being used alternately and in rapid succession with the first rev. die.  These overstruck reverses with intact obverses occur too frequently (though they are of course individually rare) to be explained any other way.

I thought your coin was of Hadrianopolis in Thrace, but I don't find either of the dies in Jurukova's monograph on that city's coins.
Curtis Clay

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2007, 02:14:20 pm »
I cannot find any city with a combination of the left and right legends: on left ICITWN, on right POLEIT

Mark,

I read LEITWN to the left and POLEIT to the right (so that fits for one and the same city) and I think I can see the missing WN in the exergue. I thought of Hadrianopolis as well, but then I read that Curtis could not find any of the dies in Jurukova. I checked Coinarchives anyway but didn't find a match either.

Lars
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Mark Farrell

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2007, 02:18:30 pm »
Thanks, Curtis. I've heard of that theory (probably from you, grin) that different reverse dies were used alternatively during production. The thought that the coin stuck in the obv die and was struck twice is interesting -- several of the letters in the obv legend appear doublestruck, and the detail is somewhat pronounced, as though every bit of sharpness from the die was impressed onto the coin.

Lars, excellent observation -- I missed the "overlap" in the legends! I'll do some more poking around myself. It is truly a detective mission.

Mark

Mark Farrell

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2007, 02:19:13 pm »
Lars (or others),

Who do you believe is the deity on the reverse?

Mark

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2007, 02:28:29 pm »
Demeter with torch and corn-ears?

Lars
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www.leunumismatik.com

Mark Farrell

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2007, 06:47:31 pm »
Before I give an update on my so far fruitless search, Lars or Curtis -- do you have an opinion on the reverse type(s) of the coin? Is is likely that both reverse dies would be for the same diety -- Demeter, for example -- though with different legend orientation, or is it more likely to be two different types, each with a different legend orientation?

Mark

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2007, 07:25:15 pm »
As Curtis hinted, it is more than useful first to find out which city it is.  That would leave us only a half dozen or so goddesses (or deities) to choose among.  Pat L.

Mark Farrell

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2007, 08:26:59 pm »
Thanks, Pat... Search underway.

Update -- In Sear's GIC, there are 49 cities that include the string 'polis'. Of that number, 28 terminate the ethnic with POLEITWN, which means that by ethnic alone (not style, not whether they minted for Gordian, etc.) there are 28 candidate cities!

Yes, I am a complete geek and have built myself a spreadsheet... The hunt is on.

Mark

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2007, 09:22:37 pm »
I think I may have found both dies at Hadrianopolis, in Varbanov (Engl. ed.):

Obv.:  Varb. 3877, with rev. Zeus seated.  Key details:  heart-shaped loop of wreath knot, the two wreath ties and their relationship to first A of legend, cuirass and drapery of bust.  The Zeus seated rev. die cannot be either of the rev. dies of Mark's coin.

Rev.:  Varb. 4006, rev. Hera standing r., head l., holding patera and scepter.  Key details: fold of drapery under l. shoulder, relation of l. hand to Pi of legend.  I'm not positive this is a die match.  The obv. die is different from that on Mark's coin.
Curtis Clay

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2007, 10:34:56 pm »
Since English ed. Varbanov numbers are of no use without a secondary ref., either to the Bulgarian ed. or to the catalogues from which they may have come, I had better report what I found in the meantime, using the collection catalogue from several years ago of a Gordian collector who sent it to me.
First, it has to be Hadrianopolis, for the reasons Curtis gives.  They mix-link the dies quite a bit, and Mark's specimen is itself more mucked up on the obverse than it looks at first glance, with some confusion above the head, but the laurel ties and the drapery are Hadrianopolis.
Second, the dominant reverse die has to be the Demeter that my friend identified as Jurukova 577.  Unfortunately, the 3rd-generation photocopy of Jurukova is not decisive, but his judgment usually is excellent, not least where dies are concerned.
Third, the die link of the obv. with this dominant reverse die does seem to be different.
I am e-mailing the link to this thread to him for his consideration, since he might have his actual coin in hand.
Though any patera or grain was destroyed by the second blow, I say that the dominant reverse type must be, after all, Demeter, because the Gordian catalogue's no 236 is a Demeter, and the righhand side of the reverse type (the drapery falls and the scepter or torch--it looks like a scepter) and, above all, the end of the legend, letter for letter, space for space,  :Greek_Pi::Greek_Lambda: E I T  : (with the omega-nu in the exergue) seems to match only the Demeter, head to r., which does have ears of grain.
Pat L.

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2007, 02:35:59 am »
Since English ed. Varbanov numbers are of no use without a secondary ref., either to the Bulgarian ed. or to the catalogues from which they may have come,

Pat,
Just curious why you say this as I am hopefully going to get the English Varbanov for a birthday present.  Do you never see the English version superceeding the Bulgarian one at some stage?

Many thanks
Malcolm

Mark Farrell

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2007, 12:23:02 pm »
Pat and Curtis -- you are wonderful!

Thanks for your help.

Pat -- let me know if your buddy has any input.

Thanks,

Mark

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2007, 01:09:10 pm »
Pat,

Mark's coin cannot be from the same Demeter rev. die as Jurukova 577, because the T in rev. legend is much nearer the ground line on that die than on Mark's coin.

I think, but am not certain, that it may be the Hera rev. die of Varbanov 4006.  The source of that coin is "Private collection, unpublished", and it is not included in Varbanov's Bulgarian edition.

Malcolm,

The English edition of Varbanov is a substantial improvement on the Bulgarian edition, and definitely supersedes it, though there are some coin photos in the Bulgarian ed. that are replaced by other photos of a similar coin, or are even entirely omitted, in the English edition.  There are a small number of photos, in other words, that occur only in the Bulgarian edition, though in general the English edition contains more descriptions and more images than the Bulgarian edition.  See my review in Forvm's Books and References section.
Curtis Clay

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2007, 04:02:21 pm »
I think that Gordian Guy may chime in this evening, if he can.  He has a huge number of Gordian coins, not all in the catalogue, and a copy of Jurukova one step closer to the original than mine (but I think Curtis has the original publication).  I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a Hera reverse had exactly the same disposition of the reverse legend as a Demeter reverse.
No one has offered me an update discount to get the newer Varbanov!
Anyway, I found the obverse die.  Here it is, attached.
• 21 04 03 AE 26  HadrianopolisGordian III, laureate, draped bust to r.  AVT K M ANT GORDIANOS AVG (the title a monogram).  Rev., River god, reclining, l. elbow on source jar (waves flow beneath), r. hand holding water plants.  ADRIA    NO    PO and in exergue LEITON.  May be Varbanov III, 2351 (is not 2352--the NO is not in the same place); ctr, no. 267 (reverse).  With initial chi, X, Hadrianopolis comes in different volumes of Varbanov in Bulgarian and English.
Pat L.

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2007, 04:17:12 pm »
Pat,

Your coin looks like Jurukova 529, her dies V237/R515, pl. L.  That obv. die is similar to Mark's die, but not the same; note for example that the wreath ties curve a little differently, and the wreath knot is simple not heart-shaped.

But, maybe GordianGuy will have one or both of Mark's dies!  I expect he may have some other overstruck reverses for GIII at Hadrianopolis too; I've seen a number of such coins being offered for sale over the years.

Curtis
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Offline gordian_guy

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2007, 07:55:04 pm »


I certainly think that the reverse  die is that of Jurakova 606, Hera. It may have been stamped on top of something else that was rotated 180 degrees top to bottom. I have not pin-pointed the obverse die yet.

c.rhodes

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2007, 08:01:06 pm »
Yes, Jurukova 606 is from the same dies as Varbanov 4006, the rev. die that I too picked out.

I had overlooked it in Jurukova's plates, however, as did Varbanov, who gives no reference to Jurukova and wrongly says "unpublished."
Curtis Clay

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2007, 09:59:48 pm »


I do not have the English Varbanov, but I suspect you are correct in your assessment. He may well thought the coin unpublished if he went by Jurakova's reverse inscription for 606 - using the rounded E as opposed to the square E, which is in the actual inscription.

c.rhodes

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2007, 10:43:01 pm »
Indeed: it does have the  :Greek_Pi::Greek_Lambda: E I T at right disposed just as on the Demeter cited above, and I think Mark has the  :Greek_Omega: of the gen. plu. at about 6:30h by Hera's own r. toe.  These little details, though, are what have kept me from buying Varbanov twice.  I'd rather cope with Bulgarian than pay for just more shaky details. 
That does it!  Pat L.

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2007, 03:05:35 am »
I think I will at least take the plunge and puchase the English version as I don't have the Bulgarian one - and it seems to be the more comprenhensive of the two.

Many thanks for your assessments

MAlcolm

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2007, 08:31:11 pm »

It is a bit of an irony that the coin that has been damaged because of a double strike has a better latter half of the inscription for this type. Anyway, I include an example of the reverse from my collection - though not the obverse because it is not the same as the double struck coin.  I have another example but not so quite as nice.

Whether or not to obtain the English version of Varbanov is something I consider frequently. I hardly use the Bulgarian edition and I am not so sure that I would use the English edition.  I use Jurakova Hadrianopolis, which is also in Bulgarian because it is the only comprehensive die study of the coinage of Hadrianopolis currently available - all scholarship issues aside. As list member know her work has led to some rather interesting discussions.

c.rhodes

Mark Farrell

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Re: Gordian Provincial, Overstruck Reverse?
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2007, 12:43:04 am »
Thanks all for your help in this detective story. I have learned much and it has been a gas watching the process by which you attacked this coin.

Thanks again,

Mark

 

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