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Author Topic: Greek coin ID Help  (Read 873 times)

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Offline Virgil H

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Greek coin ID Help
« on: August 27, 2021, 06:01:35 pm »
I have had this one for a long time, the last of a Greek lot from Forum and the one that has me totally stumped. Any help would be appreciated. Maybe Zeus or Poseidon on Obverse, not sure about reverse, I was thinking Pan, but that hasn't gone anywhere. I do my best with pics, but I know they aren't the best.

Edit: forgot to add weight and size: AE 20-21, 6.66 grams

Thanks,
Virgil

Offline Akropolis

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Re: Greek coin ID Help
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2021, 08:22:05 pm »
I can see why you thought Pan on the reverse. At first glance, it appears to possibly be a lagobolon he is holding in his left arm. Looking closer, I think it is Hermès holding a caduceus in his left hand/arm and perhaps a money bag in his right hand.
So my wild guess is Zeus on the obverse and Hermès on the reverse.
PeteB

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Greek coin ID Help
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2021, 08:50:59 pm »
Thank you PeteB, that gives me another angle of approach.

Virgil

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Greek coin ID Help
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2021, 09:38:04 pm »
Dear Virgil, Pete, and Board,

A very quick note...  Without consulting any resources except what is locked away in my head, I can tell you all that this is a Roman provincial issue of Aenus (Ainos) in Thrace.  Pete correctly identified the reverse deity.  I am thinking he did the same for the obverse, but I would need to do a quick check to be certain.  Either of you can do that and more on RPC Online and/or Corpus Nummorum.

Hope this helps a little.


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan     

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Greek coin ID Help
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2021, 09:46:34 pm »
Thank you so much, Mark. The coins that have been the hardest for me are always Roman Provincials because I just don't think of them when looking and I therefore don't find them. This is especially the case when a coin doesn't look "Roman" to me and I bought it as a "Greek" coin. I recently had one I finally figured out was a provincial because it had "Roman" looking portraits (Claudius and Agrippina), but that even took a long time to dawn on me. With your tips, I am sure I will find this one, now!

Virgil

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Greek coin ID Help
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2021, 10:46:03 pm »
Mark,

Some further questions. I did not find this in RPC Online. I found a few examples on Corpus Nummorum and Wildwinds. There is no indication that it is Roman Provincial. It is listed as Aenus, Thrace, 200-100 BC. The few Roman Provincials on the RPC site from Aenus all had what appear to be emperor portraits. In addition, this coin is Poseidon. And it is indeed Hermes on reverse. I have some problem at times understanding what coins are Roman Provincials versus just Greek. I assume it has to do with the date, so that if Rome had taken control of an area, it is Roman Provincial. So, given that Thrace was controlled by Rome somewhat halfway between 200-100 BC (168 BC), that would make this coin indeterminate or one or the other. This is rather confusing and I am not trying to be obtuse here. I assume the same coins were often made before and after Roman control. As for my labeling of coins, I try to be as accurate as possible, but I often use the nebulous term "civic issue," as well. Thanks again.

Virgil

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Greek coin ID Help
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2021, 11:01:36 pm »
Dear Virgil and Board,

I do not have the time to go into this tonight, but I see what you mean by the labeling on CN:

https://www.corpus-nummorum.eu/coins/4977

I disagree with their dating---just by looking at the style and arrangement of the ethnic/legend alone.  There are other reasons to doubt their time frame as well.     

Thank you for clarifying the identity of the obverse head.  I couldn't remember for certain if it was Zeus or Poseidon.   

"Pseudo-autonomous issue" is the preferred way to handle Roman provincials without imperial portraits/designs.  Aside from some extremely rare issues struck under Caracalla and perhaps a later emperor (I feel like I had seen something somewhere), Aenus did not portray Roman emperors on its Roman provincial issues, similar to Athens and Chios.

Again, I hope this helps.  Let me know later if you need some more.


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan         

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Greek coin ID Help
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2021, 11:18:11 pm »
Thank you very much, Mark. You have been more than helpful. I see what you are saying regarding dates and I like that "Pseudo-autonomous issue" label.

Regards,
Virgil

Offline Altamura

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Re: Greek coin ID Help
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2021, 05:47:57 am »
... I disagree with their dating---just by looking at the style and arrangement of the ethnic/legend alone. ...

But as far as I see it, this is the timeframe usually accepted today.

Already in Hans von Fritze, "Die autonomen Münzen von Ainos", Nomisma IV, 1909, pp. , he discusses on page 31 the dating of these Poseidon/Hermes coins:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89097023048&view=1up&seq=39&skin=2021
He already mentions the round layout of the legend and underlines the Roman influence on Ainos already during the second century BC.

In Oğuz Tekin, "Excavation Coins From Ainos. A Preliminary Report", in Proceedings of the 10th International Congress of Thracology, Komotini-Alexandroupolis 18-23 October 2005, Athens, 2007, pp. 596-601:
https://www.academia.edu/805356/_Excavation_Coins_From_Ainos._A_Preliminary_Report_
this coinage still is dated to the second and first century BC.

Tekin also refers to a Turkish PhD thesis from 1998 about the excavation coins of Ainos by O. Yağız, “Ainos Kazı Sikkeleri” (beeing a bit thin  :-\):
http://nek.istanbul.edu.tr:4444/ekos/TEZ/32989.pdf
There is no hint in this paper that this tradidional dating should be changed out of archeological reasons.

The overview about the coinage of Ainos in Corpus Nummorum Online also does not deviate from this dating:
https://www.corpus-nummorum.eu/resources/typology/aenus

...  There are other reasons to doubt their time frame as well. ...

Which are your "other reasons" to doubt that dating?

Regards

Altamura

Offline Virgil H

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Re: Greek coin ID Help
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2021, 08:04:55 pm »
Altamura,

Thanks once again for your always wonderful references with links. No matter the language, I always find them helpful and often indispensable. I realized at some point after I posted that I suspected Poseidon was because I have seen that portrait before on another Aenus coin I own. I added Zeus because he is so common, but I never made the connection until after everyone pointed me in the right direction. Thanks again to all.

Virgil

Offline Mark Fox

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Re: Greek coin ID Help
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2021, 08:34:58 pm »
Dear Altamura, Virgil, and Board,

Thank you for your interest and thorough research, Altamura.  I tried to review it and gathered some more in preparation of this post.   

As it currently stands, the evidence for my misgivings on the current dating of the Poseidon/Hermes "large denomination" bronzes of Aenus is as follows:

1.  The fabric of the flans and the style of the designs and lettering resemble von Fritze's "Gruppe F" possibly more than he realized.  He admits to Group E's Roman influence and tried to explain it within the context of Aenus' turbulent history during the second century B.C.  Neighboring Maroneia is also mentioned as having undergone the same kind of tug of war between the Romans and Seleucids/Macedonians, but if we look at its bronze coinage during the same time frame as the Aenus issue under study (2nd–1st cen. B.C.), we do not find the same level of Roman influence (if any): 

https://www.corpus-nummorum.eu/coins?id=&dieV=&dieR=&fromdate=-200&todate=-1&mints=24&legend_ob=&legendBasis_ob=&obvLegendDir=&desc_ob=&ObverseMonogram=&symbol_ob=&legend_rev=&legendBasis_rev=&revLegendDir=&desc_rev=&ReverseMonogram=&symbol_rev=&weight_min=&weight_max=&diameter_from=&diameter_to=&materials=6&add_desc=&inventorynr=&provenience=&publicCommentary=

It all looks fairly Greek to me!

2.  Please let me know if I overlooked a coin, but the border beading on the Group E Poseidon/Hermes bronzes look identical to the beading on the definite pseudo-autonomous issues and is absent on all the Group D and earlier coins. 

3.  A few specimens in both Group E & F bear a dimple on the obverse.  A few examples:
     
https://www.corpus-nummorum.eu/coins/30226

https://www.corpus-nummorum.eu/coins/4978

https://www.corpus-nummorum.eu/coins/4986

https://www.corpus-nummorum.eu/coins/6097

4.  Some Group E Poseidon/Hermes bronzes are struck with a 'W'-shaped omega in the ethnic

https://www.corpus-nummorum.eu/coins/30226

https://www.corpus-nummorum.eu/coins/30223

This variety looks like the earliest struck in the group, considering how the ethnic is also arranged in practically vertical, left to right lines.  It feels rather first century AD.  It also gives evidence that the Poseidon/Hermes bronzes were minted over a long time.  That said, and as far as I can tell, none of the earlier Hellenistic groups deviate in this way, or any other, from their use of an omicron in the ethnic suffix.
       
5.  Group E feels "orphaned."  In my experience (and what I probably read somewhere in Coinage and Identity in the Roman Provinces [2005]), a common phenomenon in Roman provincial coinage is the gradual appearance of the smaller denominations and the addition of larger ones.  To say this is a reaction to inflation is probably both correct and a little over simplistic, but whatever the exact reason(s), the trend toward larger denominations is observable in many cities.  With Aenus, I find it strange that among its pseudo-autonomous issues, there is not a single coin yet known that corresponds with the lone Group E denomination, which is arguably also represented in earlier times.  In stepping back and looking at the larger monetary picture, Group E frankly looks a bit silly with just a single large bronze denomination having been issued between ca. 200 and 1 B.C.  But, if one slips it into the pseudo-autonomous group,  the picture starts to make more sense (or at least it does to me).       

6.  In Die antiken Münzen Nord-Griechenlands II (1912), we see where the probable source for the period "2.-1. c. BC" (as presented on Corpus Nummorum) was rather carelessly followed by subsequent researchers for the Poseidon/Hermes bronzes:   

https://archive.org/details/dieantikenmunzen211unse/page/196/mode/2up

I think the subtitle beneath the date range is worth reading!
 
Now for a few final points in direct response to Altamura's:
   
7.  In light of the point just made above, I suspect the current main goal of Corpus Nummorum is to catalog all the coins on their to-do list and not challenge the written sources until that first, tedious phase is at least mostly complete.  Here we have another example of what I am referring to, with AMNG II 375:
 
https://archive.org/details/dieantikenmunzen211unse/page/190/mode/2up

The monogram was dutifully reproduced on CN:

https://www.corpus-nummorum.eu/coins/33047

But as can be seen on the pictured coin, there is a very obvious tau at the bottom of the monogram that the editors of AMNG apparently did not notice and the CN team did not correct yet on their illustration!   

8.  Lastly, in reference to the Turkish PhD thesis, Altamura writes "there is no hint in this paper that this traditional dating [of the Poseidon/Hermes coins] should be changed out of archeological reasons." 
So far, I just skimmed the paper, so I will need to ask you this question:  is there any indication in the paper that the archaeologists used the site to date the coins---assuming they even could?  More likely, from the uncritical sounding way they discussed and cataloged the coins, they used them to date the site or had at least attempted to do so.   From the evidence gathered here (thanks in large part to your own research efforts), it appears the scholarly consensus on the dating of the Aenus bronzes have been at least mostly unbroken since the early 20th century.  To the excavators, who have many other things on their minds, there would be little reason, I suspect, to challenge the data, but rather rely on it for frying (dating) larger fish

Thus ends my reasoning for doubting the traditional dating of the Poseidon/Hermes bronzes of Aenus.  I also did some research on the remarkable monogram on the coins' obverse, but sadly, I need to move on to other projects now.  I hope what I did discuss at least makes one take a second look at these interesting Thracians.


Best regards,

Mark Fox
Michigan             


Offline Virgil H

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Re: Greek coin ID Help
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2021, 10:16:52 pm »
Thank you for that well considered response, so much to think about and so much more to these coins than meets the eye at first. Thanks to all for a great discussion.

Virgil

Offline Altamura

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Re: Greek coin ID Help
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2021, 12:48:57 pm »
... I tried to review it and gathered some more in preparation of this post. ...
Thanks for your remarks, I will try to comment on some of them:


... 1.  The fabric of the flans and the style of the designs and lettering resemble von Fritze's "Gruppe F" possibly more than he realized.
... Neighboring Maroneia is also mentioned as having undergone the same kind of tug of war between the Romans and Seleucids/Macedonians, but if we look at its bronze coinage during the same time frame as the Aenus issue under study (2nd–1st cen. B.C.), we do not find the same level of Roman influence (if any) ...
The difference between the two cities seems to be that Maroneia flourished economically during this time, Ainos underwent a decline (see for Maroneia Schönert-Geiss 1987, p. 2, for Ainos AMNG II-1, p. 143). This could perhaps result in in differnt strength against Roman influence.
And meanwhile many scholars believe that e.g. the second century tetradrachms of Maroneia have been minted under Roman influence. You perhaps don't see it on the coins themselves, but the city probably hasn't been so independent as it seemed.

... 2.  Please let me know if I overlooked a coin, but the border beading on the Group E Poseidon/Hermes bronzes look identical to the beading on the definite pseudo-autonomous issues ...
This seems to be correct. But it tells us that this beading was introduced sometime after Group D and continued until imperial times, not more. We cannot deduce that it has happened only in imperial times.

... 3.  A few specimens in both Group E & F bear a dimple on the obverse. ...
You find these dimples in the third cenury BC on Ptolemaic coins and in the second century BC (perhaps earlier) on Seleucid coins (and Ainos was under control of both of these powers for some time). So this doesn't perhaps help in our dating problem.

... 4.  Some Group E Poseidon/Hermes bronzes are struck with a 'W'-shaped omega in the ethnic ...
These lunate letter forms are used on coins since the fourth century BC, see Philip Kinns, "Lunate letter forms in the 4th century and Hellenistic coinage of Ionia", in "Opuscula Anatolica IV", NC 174, 2014, pp. 1-28:
https://www.academia.edu/10896948
It is not really reliable to base a chronology on these letter forms.

... 5.  Group E feels "orphaned." ...
Perhaps, perhaps not  :-\.

... 6.  In Die antiken Münzen Nord-Griechenlands II (1912), we see where the probable source for the period "2.-1. c. BC" (as presented on Corpus Nummorum) was rather carelessly followed by subsequent researchers
... I think the subtitle beneath the date range is worth reading! ...
Yes, but "zum Teil vielleicht" means "perhaps partially", not "certainly all"  :). And the text in AMNG was also written by Hans von Fritze, see page 143.

... 7.  In light of the point just made above, I suspect the current main goal of Corpus Nummorum is to catalog all the coins on their to-do list and not challenge the written sources ...
This is certainly the case, but among the people responsible for CN there are some experts who obviously up to now didn't have doubts about the traditional dating. I admit that this is an "argumentum ex silentio" and as such always weak  :-\, but it is at least a hint.

... The monogram was dutifully reproduced on CN ...
But under "Public Commentary" there is written "The monogram of the coin in the ANS looks slightly different from the one drawn in AMNG.". Or did you write them about that  ???

... 8.  Lastly, in reference to the Turkish PhD thesis, Altamura writes "there is no hint in this paper that this traditional dating [of the Poseidon/Hermes coins] should be changed out of archeological reasons."  ...
Again an "argumentum ex silentio" from my side  :(, but again better than nothing  :).


I also tried to find hoards containing this type, but I didn't find any  :(.

Perhaps the minting of this Poseidon Hermes type spread over a longer time, the stilistic divergence within this series is broad enough for that.
But I am not (yet?  :)) convinced that these coins all have been minted in imperial times.

Regards

Altamura

 

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