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Author Topic: banker's marks  (Read 2584 times)

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Offline JBF

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banker's marks
« on: April 27, 2020, 09:03:25 pm »
Can anyone tell me about early banker's marks, I believe they are found on Lydian trites sometimes?  Also, on Persian sigloi, are they found on early electrum, or just a little after?  I would also like to know what they think their purpose was.  I believe they show up in Roman Republic coinage as well.

I appreciate any light one might shed on this subject,
muchos gracias
John

Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: banker's marks
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2020, 01:09:24 am »
One of the theories I see most often is that they were applied by either merchants or money changers or "bankers" who after testing the coin for fineness and authenticity would apply their mark so that if the coin came into their possession again, they would not have to retest it since they had already done so the first time they handled the coin.

I'm sure there are other theories which others may be able to explain.

Here is a Lydian trite with at least two marks on the obverse.


Craig

Offline Altamura

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Offline cmcdon0923

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Re: banker's marks
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2020, 10:49:45 am »
Another of the most commonly countermarked series is the Persian sigloi. 

Check out this Wiki entry for a listing of some of the marks commonly encountered on them.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=Siglos



Craig

Offline quadrans

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Re: banker's marks
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2020, 11:11:07 am »
All the Best :), Joe
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Offline JBF

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Re: banker's marks
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2020, 04:52:40 pm »
I am trying to figure out where and when the banker's marks come from, do they have a presence in early electrum, besides Lydia and one from Cyzicus?  The Aegina turtle is fairly early.  Are those from Lydia and Cyzicus seem a little later than the earliest electrum, and of course those of Persia come after the fall of Lydia, c. 548.

It would be interesting if banker's marks are not found in the Ionian electrum coins, but were fairly frequent in the Lydian coins.  They are also pretty frequent on Aegina turtles.

Are there any bronze coins that have banker's markers, or are they just precious metal issues?  Are the coins with the mark's a fairly standard weight?  Not too light, note to heavy?

I assume that banker's marks occur in all times, but not in all places.  Archaic, Classical, Hellenistic, Roman Republic, Imperatorial, Imperial.

I assume that banker's marks appear on common types of coins?  Yes? no?

Is there any kind of typical placement of banker's marks?

Just a few idle questions, but if there is a time where things change and banker's marks start being introduced, then that may have ramifications on the evolution of coinage in general.

I would love to see if anyone could find more EL banker's marks kinds.

John
JBF

Offline Henry H

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Re: banker's marks
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2020, 05:25:12 am »
Thrace Kings Lysimachus 306-281 BC
Not really sure if this is a bankers mark or not i think more it`s to deface the ruler why put the mark on his face and not round the edge

Offline Altamura

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Re: banker's marks
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2020, 01:08:43 pm »
Quote from: Henry H on May 08, 2020, 05:25:12 am
... why put the mark on his face and not round the edge ...
The face on the coin is that of Athena and not of Lysimachos  :).

The same mark occurs on another type of Lysimachos
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6639402
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=833879
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b103230936.r=lysimaque%20-argent%20-or?rk=729617;2

I know this special mark only from these coins of Lysimachos, but I have no idea about the meaning of it  :-\.

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Altamura


Offline Henry H

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Re: banker's marks
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2020, 09:04:50 am »
Altamira
Many thanks for that info
H

Offline JBF

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Re: banker's marks
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2020, 10:00:27 pm »
That is interesting, I am not sure it is a banker's mark, but if it is, that is interesting, I assumed that banker's marks were of precious metals issues.
Can anyone think of other bronze issues that look like they have banker's marks?

Offline Altamura

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Re: banker's marks
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2020, 03:14:06 am »
I am not sure whether the definition of "banker's mark" is so sharp that you can classify each mark without any doubt  ;).

But you are right, this mark on the Lysimachos coins doesn't look like the usual countermarks (mostly pictorial or with letters or monograms) on bronze coins and probably had a different purpose than e.g. the little marks on early Lydian coinage. But we don't know who applied it for which reason  :-\.

Regards

Altamura


Offline djmacdo

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Re: banker's marks
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2020, 07:16:11 pm »
This countermark is fairly frequently found on this specific type of Lysimachus bronze.  Since the mark and the coin type occur regularly together, it is probably some sort of a revaluation or revalidation mark.  I have seen over ten similar pieces over the years.

Offline JBF

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Re: banker's marks
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2020, 10:37:18 pm »
I seem to remember banker's marks on silver Republic coins, are they found "much" on Roman Republic? and/or Imperial coins?  forgive me, but I am fairly ignorant about Roman coinage (of course, that means I probably know more than 90% of non-numismatists).  Would a banker's mark be "enough" to tell whether a coin is plated or not, my guess is no.  Are there plated coins with banker's marks, esp. if they don't reveal the plating (fouree)?

Some on the Lydian or Persian coins are little wolf's heads, or lion faces or so forth.

Offline Altamura

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