Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 2 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Meaning of cruciform monogram  (Read 1921 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Meaning of cruciform monogram
« on: May 09, 2017, 09:43:03 pm »


Anyone know the meaning of this cruciform monogram (from a Justinian II follis)?
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline joma-tk

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
Re: Meaning of cruciform monogram
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2017, 06:25:56 am »
Dear Joe

I have something in mind but it doesn't match with a Iustinianus II follis.
Is it possible to post the coin?

tk


Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Meaning of cruciform monogram
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2017, 07:09:41 am »
Byzantine Empire, Justinian II, 10 July 685 - Late 695 and Summer 705 - 4 November 711 A.D.

SH73338. Bronze follis, CNG auction 88, lot 1695 (described as SBCV 1270); cf. SBCV 1270, Tolstoi 81, DOC II 33, Morrisson BnF 15/Ct/AE/03, Hahn MIB 56 (all K below H left), gVF, Carthage mint, weight 3.187g, maximum diameter 19.5mm, die axis 180o, 1st reign, c. 694 - 695 A.D.(?); obverse Justinian standing facing, crown with cross and chlamys, globus cruciger in right hand, akakia in left hand, retrograde cruciform ΘEOTOKE BOHΘEI monogram left, cruciform Justinian monogram right; reverse no legend, large M (40 nummi), Justinian monogram above, H (year 8?) left, Λ over K right, KΓω in exergue; extreme rarity, 2nd known; $900.00

The only other example of this variant known to Forum is CNG auction 88, lot 1695 (misdescribed as an ordinary SBCV 1270). All other examples have the K below the H on the left, vice below the Λ on the right. Even the "normal" SBCV 1270 type is missing from the Dumbarton Oaks collection (DOC II 33 refs the Tolstoi coin) and described by Grierson as an extreme rarity.

The monograms on the obverse:

-
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline joma-tk

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
Re: Meaning of cruciform monogram
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2017, 07:58:48 am »
The monogram in question means Anastasius which I can not understand how it is related with Iustinianus II.
But that's what it means...


tk

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Meaning of cruciform monogram
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2017, 08:17:02 am »
Here is the Anastasius monogram, which is very similar:



Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Gert

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1483
    • My Vcoins store
Re: Meaning of cruciform monogram
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2017, 03:54:56 am »
I think you have take a step back and think for a moment that a monogram incorporates the letters of a name. The problem is that IOVCTINIANOV and ANACTACIOV have exactly the same set of letters. So saying 'this monogram means Anastasius' is only partly correct, it means both Anastasiou and Justinianou. Attribution to either of these solutions must rest on more than just composition of the monogram.

So returning to your original question: that retrograde monogram consists of the letters C - TOV - N - A (I is always implied). So it can be solved IOVCTINIANOV without problem on a Justinian coin and ANACTACIOV on an Anastasius coin.
Regards
Gert

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12103
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: Meaning of cruciform monogram
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2017, 07:08:32 am »
Thanks tk and Gert.
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline Paul B11

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 21
Re: Meaning of cruciform monogram
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2023, 02:56:39 pm »
I have three simple questions about monograms and #2 specifically, trying to learn.

1) some sources say #2 means (or also means) Antioch on Sear 245 Pentanummium. Is this true or possible? Double meaning?

2) given the somewhat random mixing of Latin and Greek at times, and oddities of Greek in cases like lunate S and so forth, are monograms always Latin only? Or at least early monograms. I’m thinking of many iterations of Theopolis mint marks from Justinian.

3) were monograms official, and therefore approved by literate officials (unlike legends necessarily), or were they also subject to engraver’s knowledge and skill? Does that help explain seemingly minor differences in the Heraclius monograms for example?

Thanks for helping a beginner understand!

Offline Paul B11

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 21
Re: Meaning of cruciform monogram
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2023, 04:10:15 pm »
Excuse question number 2, as I work some of these out I see obvious Greek letters including the lunate S, v over o (not gamma but -ou). Using Latin on early obverses and then mixtures for numerals and mint marks etc. threw me off. I’m learning.

Is it true that Theodora worked her name into some of Justinian’s monograms? Two for one. I read that in a history but I don’t know which symbol. You would need a Theta, obviously.

Also, I assume swapping the phi-like symbol and -ov left and right as on some of his coins (monogram 8 and 9) still “works” although I wonder if one is official and the other engraver error.

Edit: Mono 8 and 9 are Justin II, so I think I see evidence of Sophia, especially with the Phi and retained A.  I don’t get the K though. I also see a very similar monogram for Justinian with the O and V separate above the N in architecture at his Hagia Sofia masterpiece. I get why it has no Phi or Kappa or v above o now! Still curious about the interchangeability of mono 8 and 9.

Offline Gert

  • Procurator Monetae
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 1483
    • My Vcoins store
Re: Meaning of cruciform monogram
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2023, 03:30:11 pm »
1) It is not possible to solve this monogram to Antioch (ANTIOXIAC presumably) as there is no X, but there is a V. This monogram can solve into both ANACTACIOV and IOVCTINIANOV (as both names have the exact same set of letters)
2) Have a look at the Dumbarton Oaks seals database for hundreds of examples of Byzantine Latin and Greek monograms.
3) A monogram necessarily incorporates the letters of a name, and there are always multiple ways to arrange the letters, no form more 'official' than another. I think this simple observation explains the differences in the monograms of some emperors.

Sear Monogram 8 and 9 are identical except Phi and OV are switched on top. Both solve IOVCTINOV KAI COFIAC (of Justin and Sophia), which is where you get your K.

Regards
Gert




Offline Paul B11

  • Praetorian
  • **
  • Posts: 21
Re: Meaning of cruciform monogram
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2023, 06:17:58 pm »
Awesome, thanks Gert! The K insight is brilliant. Would have never guessed it…

Paul

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity