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Author Topic: Roman coin from pompeii  (Read 8798 times)

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Offline stlnats

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2015, 04:58:05 pm »
After the rain, the coins come out of the ground, just like earthworms. When I was in Athens, I found about 30 tetradrachms just lying around. I didn't even pick up the ones that were less than VF.

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Offline v-drome

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2015, 07:32:12 pm »
When I was a little kid growing up in Caesarea, my friend's oldest brother told me they had a game when they were walking across the dunes from the village to the beach every day after school.  The game had two parts.  The first part was "let's see who can find the largest coin".  The second part was "let's see who can throw their coin the farthest!"  This is absolutely true.  At the time there was no law against picking up surface finds, though that changed in 1978.  After windstorms there would often be dozens of people, sometimes whole families, walking around looking for coins.  There was also a place on the beach where coins of every age from Hellenistic up to modern coins would sometimes wash out, but they were almost always in very poor condition from the salt water.

Offline Matthew C5

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2015, 08:48:46 pm »
Coins in Athens lying around!???  I think that I would soil myself :o

Offline Danny N

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2015, 04:59:23 am »
I wonder what the original owner of the coin would want as they were the owners. I don't think the current government represents them 2000 years later.
I don't have a strong view either way and I think its up to each individual to do what they think is right as if the finder did not tell us we would not know. I would not judge someone else as they did not need to tell us and if they did then they probably did not know it was illegal to take the coin.

I have bought coins over the years and I do not know their origins - we could all possess coins that were illegally obtained and would not know any better as we bought them legitimately.
Should we ban dealing in coins to cut out illegal activity like they have done with Ivory - I don't think so because then we would not be able to do what we are all passionate about. Where do you draw the line when you judge people.

Keep in mind if the original post was not made we probably would never have seen that particular coin nor had an interesting story to listen to about how it was found.
I am surprised to to hear stories of how coins have been found after rain - never thought that could happen.
adiuvantes populus est sibiipsi praemium

a

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2015, 08:24:58 am »
My 5 cent contribution...
We are discussing here few different dilemmas:

1. Breaking laws.

The laws are different in different countries and some of them hurts human rights and shall be broken (I agree that preservation of historic sites is NOT one of such laws). Not necessary violating of government rules makes you criminal in eyes of all human beings. Some rules are universal and braking of them makes you immoral person. I don't think that picking up coin from famous or anonymous archaeological site makes you criminal or scum more than violating traffic rules that can cause to injury or death of people. It is not black and white, as some posters here wrote. I think that the person that picked up the coin in many cases makes comprehensive research about it, the historic period, the ruler, etc., keeps this coin for many years and passes it to descendants as family relic. This contributes to history and archaeology popularization much more than storing it in archaeological authority warehouse (no one makes illusion that this coin will be exhibited in museum).

2. Causing damage to archaeological research.

In theory, removal of coins, pieces of pottery can cause to damage to historical research without connection to legislation in specific country. Metal detecting and removing of ancient artifacts in Germany or Austria hurts archaeological sites exactly as in Italy, Greece, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon or Iraq. I don't think that as rule every detectiorist can decide by himself whether some specific artifact is important evidence and can contribute to research or it is meaningless and coming from destroyed strata.

In addition, keep in mind that many of coins purchased from legal dealers or ebay auctions are coming directly from archaeological sites around the world rather than from "old" collections. Some coins and artifacts in this days are also coming from looted  national museums in Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq. Some of them were removed systematically from areas controlled by IS and income from selling them is one of many sources feeding the hungry beast of civil war in Syria or Iraq.

Is the conclusion of this to ban collecting of ancient coins, artifacts around the world? My personal mind - no. Everyone makes his decision whether to collect the coins or no, from where to buy them, pick up the stray findings from the surface or look for them with metal detector.

"Do not censure other people, and they will not censure you"

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Offline Matthew C5

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2015, 09:06:51 am »
I was discussing this post with my wife yesterday.....who is exceptionally patient with my endless coin conversations.  I pointed out that had a coin from such an inportant site as Pompeii been found, it might have important context.  For example:  If that coin was a type not expected to be found in Pompeii, there would be further excavations near the area it was found.  If more coins or historical items were associated with it, this might tell a story of Pompeii that would otherwise not be known to history.  What if it were a Chinese coin, or a ring with a ruby from India, or simply(more grounded idea) from a province that was not expected to be under Roman control at this point in history?

With all of the burnt libraries and smashed tablets of writing, we can't afford to give-up what's left to fill-in the gaps. 

Just wanted to put the focus on what actually matters.  If the laws said 'sure pick wherever the heck you'd like, we don't care one bit' would you be ok with joining the hundreds of people picking every day, or would you start to take the other position?

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2015, 09:40:49 am »
This thread is developing pretty much as I expected. For those who advocate that no-one ever touches the smallest pottery shard or loose coin lying on the ground, I wonder where exactly do you think the coins in your collections come from? I'm sure that you know that many of your own coins must have come from hoards as you'll have seen other similar pieces marketed at the same time (by the way, hoards are typically found far from archaeological contexts as the whole point is that they be hidden). And you should know that many of your other coins must have been found in isolated circumstances, on the ground near well-trafficked areas or roadways, or under the ground in such areas, perhaps via metal detectors. We are ok with that because as collectors we know that there are hundreds of millions of such ancient coins lying around the place, and 99.9% have no relevant archaeological context at all, nor are museums or researchers the least bit interested in the vast majority, and the best that public institutions might do is to throw the coin in a large box in a basement. Where there are methods to record eg the UK portable antiquities scheme, that's ideal but often minor finds go unrecorded. We know that every single one of our ancient coins have been picked up or dug up by someone at some time in history. We are ok with buying such coins, because we know there are billions around of no archaeological interest.

I, myself, would never pick something up from an archaeological site. No way. Given the importance of this subject, although I joked about the subject in an earlier draft of this post, as a devil's advocate, it's best to be very clear that I wouldn't pick up anything or advocate that anyone else does, from a protected site. Random fields and roadsides are a different matter - there are a gazillion coins in non-archaeological contexts awaiting our collections.

Offline stlnats

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2015, 10:23:50 am »
The lows are different in different countries and some of them hurts human rights and shall be broken (I agree that preservation of historic sites is one of such lows).

I hope that this isn't what you mean to say explorer - that laws regarding historic sites should be broken.

On an ancillary point, the notion that somehow this will become a cherished family heirloom is nice, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, is at best a rationalization and false at that.  Two of the three questions I've seen most often on various forums about such "hierlooms" are: what 's it worth and where can I sell it?  The first is, of course, what is this?


Andrew, I think your comments are, as always, well articulated but are really not relevant in this specific instance.  For me the situation is not about picking up a shard or coin from some random field (an entirely different discussion in which I'd generally side with you) but is about taking something from a historically important and protected site - basically an outdoor museum.  That specific action just isn't the right thing to do any more than rummaging through the large box of "uninteresting" coins in their basement.  

Close to home here in St Louis, I'm aware of more than one significant institutional collection which have been mismanaged, damaged or looted over the years and believe that enthusiastic, interested private collectors are often, maybe usually, better stewards.  But again that's not the point in this case.

Just MHO.





Offline carthago

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2015, 10:26:24 am »
This thread is developing pretty much as I expected. For those who advocate that no-one touches the small pottery shard or loose coin lying on the ground, I wonder where exactly do you think the coins in your collections come from? I'm sure that you know that many of your own coins must have come from undocumented hoards as you'll have seen other similar pieces marketed at the same time. And you should know that many of your other coins must have been found in isolated circumstances, on the ground near well-trafficked ancient ruins or roadways, or under the ground in such areas, perhaps via metal detectors. We are ok with that because as collectors we know that there are hundreds of millions of such ancient coins lying around the place, and 99.9% have no relevant archaeological context at all, nor are museums or researchers the least bit interested in the vast majority, and the best that public institutions might do is to throw the coin in a large box in a basement. We know that every single one of our ancient coins have been picked up or dug up by someone at some time in history. We are ok with buying such coins, because we know there are billions around of no archaeological interest, so long as, it would seem from the discussion in this thread, that we don't know where they come from (even though the seller might know). But the moment someone actually admits to picking something up that is lying on the ground in full public view, which might as easily have been picked up by the person behind us on the path, or even by a professional scavenger who would make sure to lose its provenance pdq (whereas we will retain that provenance), then there are howls of protest. Where do you think your coins came from?

This is precisely what I think. Well said, Andrew. 

Offline Molinari

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2015, 10:30:47 am »

Andrew, I think your comments are, as always, well articulated but are really not relevant in this specific instance.  For me the situation is not about picking up a shard or coin from some random field (an entirely different discussion in which I'd generally side with you) but is about taking something from a historically important and protected site - basically an outdoor museum.  


Again I am in total agreement.  I was also under the impression that the vast majority of ancient coins come from hoards far outside of major archaeological sites.  Perhaps I was wrong?

Offline Matthew C5

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2015, 10:34:47 am »
A valid point Andrew.

I myself would like to think that my coins came from finds in fields from soldiers,etc. who never came back to retrieve them, or from a hoard of 100s or even 1000s where they are all repeats of the same and only a handfull might be historically valuable, and so on.  Every time you buy a used item you have the risk that it had been improperly taken or even stolen.  It could be a TV, a car stereo, musical instrument, or a coin.

...but hey, in the end,  I would need a lot of will power to retain my integrity if I saw a nice shiny coin calling-out my name.....my precious.....;)

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2015, 10:50:42 am »
Thank you, stlnats,  for pointing to my typo. I fixed it.

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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2015, 11:02:10 am »

Andrew, I think your comments are, as always, well articulated but are really not relevant in this specific instance.  For me the situation is not about picking up a shard or coin from some random field (an entirely different discussion in which I'd generally side with you) but is about taking something from a historically important and protected site - basically an outdoor museum.  


Again I am in total agreement.  I was also under the impression that the vast majority of ancient coins come from hoards far outside of major archaeological sites.  Perhaps I was wrong?

You are probably right as regards today's finds, as is stlnats in his call-out on me. But oddly those old provenance coins that we all love to own are probably more likely to have come from areas of concentrated ancient activities such as the Roman Forum, Ephesus, the Athenian Agora, or Pompeii, but perhaps hundreds of years ago. We've lost those provenances so it's neither here nor there, and today those sites have been pretty thoroughly excavated whereas a random field or roadside hasn't, meaning that modern finds are much more likely to come from a random field or roadside.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2015, 12:40:20 pm »
Ideally the coin would be sealed between two sheets of plexiglass and mounted on the ground so every tourist walking by could see it where found.  Unfortunately, that isn't likely to happen and if turned-in, I expect it would get a three minute glance and go into a drawer, not to be seen again for decades. Regardless, you just can't keep things you find in a designated and protected archeological site or anywhere the law says you can't. I wish, on this discussion board, members would refrain from suggesting it is OK to break the law anywhere.
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Offline v-drome

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2015, 01:50:17 pm »
Excellent point, Joe, thank you.  I wanted to add something with regard to where coins come from.  I read a very nice article by Ya'acov Meshorer about the start of his great collection.  He and his brother would go out to the many construction sites around Jerusalem in the 1940's and 50's, and compete to see who could find the most coins.  Only coins older than 1400 CE counted!  The stratigraphic record had already been erased, and they were essentially rescuing the coins from destruction.  The situation was similar in the thousands of acres of sand dunes around Caesarea, which had been used for target practice, bulldozed, and otherwise disturbed for centuries.  Digging in ancient sites was always prohibited, but surface finds were allowed.  One of the concerns, when the 1978 law against collecting went into effect, was that people would stop reporting important finds in order to avoid confiscation.

 By the way, if you ever find a small aerial bomb in one of these areas, do NOT bring it home.  Our neighbor did, and when it went off he was badly injured and the shrapnel went through both sides of our house.  

Offline stlnats

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2015, 02:41:09 pm »
Thank you, stlnats,  for pointing to my typo. I fixed it.

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Offline Bill W4

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2015, 02:52:52 pm »
Interesting thread, I have no idea where my coins came from and never really thought about it. Probably for the best.  I have a piece of slate from my grandfathers things that is labeled " from Wm. Penn's porch".  Don't know if that's true but I always thought that if everyone did that there would soon be no porch left.  Also have a British 3 pound cannonball he picked up somewhere.  Probably Germantown or Brandywine battle field.  I find Amerindian stone points in my garden.  Should I call an archaeologist?  I think not.  There are mounds here, I don't go in with a pick and shovel but what washes up is fair game .  Again if it's a marked, restricted site; hands off, do not touch. Otherwise the points I find I label; Wish my grandfather had done so with the cannonball.  Don't think the poor guy who started all this should be castigated for picking up a damn coin lying in the gutter.  Common sense should prevail there.   In the long run none of this means anything, though it is fun for now.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2015, 02:55:47 pm »
I will remember the aerial bomb tip.

Time for two new RULES here on the discussion board.

- Don't suggest that other people should break the law.

- Don't suggest or imply that there is anything shady about collecting ancient coins or that by doing so you might contribute to criminal activity.  This is a pro-collecting website, not an anti-collecting website.
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Offline Automan

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2015, 03:09:57 pm »
"tomb" has been very absent from this discussion, hope we have not been feeding a troll...

Clearly, legally the coin belongs to the Italian state. Who it belongs to morally, I suppose, depends on whether one thinks one has a moral right to break Italian law.

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Online Jochen

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2015, 04:56:22 pm »
Another problem

Naturally I don't know where the majority of my coins which I have bought come from. I want to point to a problem which wasn't talk about until now:

I think there is a big difference between numismatists and archaeologists. The latter are interested in the place and the environment of the found coin, and taken the coin from its original locations would destroy the context of this find. But the archaeologist usually is not interested in the coin itself. In contrast to the numismatist and the interested collector. I have a lot of numismatic books on my shelf but no one of them is writing about the circumstances of the find. These 2 disciplines have different objects.

Today many of the archaeologists try to impose on them their own view of things. They are thinking that their own view is the only correct one. 

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Offline Matthew C5

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2015, 10:09:58 pm »
Firstly I think that we should be mindful of the fact that this site/messageboard is a direct result of a business, and that the Joe deserves some respect in terms of keeping it in line with present laws and practice. 

I like Jochen's last comment; which I never thought of previously.  This anti-co-operation with different disciplines puts up a lot of walls.  One that came directly to mind is archaeology,geology, and astronomy.  I have read countless very sound theories that would come full-circle if these three co-operated better.

So just to be clear here, aerial bombs with a promising patena should not be cleaned with dental picks and waxed??

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2015, 03:56:43 am »
thank you for everyones help with this coin, i only wanted to find out what it was, and i didn't want to learn about the legalities in italy with archaeological sites. Thankyou

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2015, 04:05:15 am »
i also found the coin just sticking out of the ground after a storm in a street so i believe i'm not in the wrong

Offline Jay GT4

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2015, 08:32:00 am »
i also found the coin just sticking out of the ground after a storm in a street so i believe i'm not in the wrong


It doesn't really matter what you believe though, the Italian law is pretty clear whether we  agree with it or not.

Offline Matthew C5

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Re: Roman coin from pompeii
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2015, 09:40:49 am »
thank you for everyones help with this coin, i only wanted to find out what it was, and i didn't want to learn about the legalities in italy with archaeological sites. Thankyou

This is inevitable from your post.  Count yourself lucky that you didn't get arrested/charged, and pick-up a less controversial coin from the streets of Forvm Ancient Coins;)

 

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