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Author Topic: Lead seal  (Read 1050 times)

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Offline wileyc

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Lead seal
« on: April 30, 2011, 04:11:43 am »
Lead seal 30mm by 25mm

is there a interpretation to be made with the figure on the Reverse?
I have seen them with monograms but not with so large of a figure?

thanks

cw

pant

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Re: Lead seal
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2011, 09:13:06 am »
This is forgery.

Offline wileyc

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Re: Lead seal
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2011, 12:41:38 pm »
WOW, thats interesting, I would not have guesses it or suspected it, Using a microscope for cleaning it has multiple hard encrustations and mineral deposits, is badly scored and was mixed in with some dirty rather average follis that I was sorting thru for a friend.

 What is it a forgery of?

are there other examples?

 I do not question you so speak, I am just completely fooled on the level of encrustation and condition of this seal and am a bit surprised due to the aforementioned issues.

Thanks

cw

Offline Gert

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Re: Lead seal
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2011, 03:09:54 pm »
I am also quite interested in why Pant thinks this is a forgery. Does he know of another example?
I find the style suspect. The overall appearance of the seal, and the obv. iconography, suggests 11th century, but the lettering is not representative for that period. The particular shape of A (with the V shaped cross bar) wasn't in use at that time.
As I have not encountered many fake Byzantine seals on the market, it would be helpful if pant could share with us his reasons to condemn this seal.
Regards
Gert

pant

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Re: Lead seal
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2011, 04:03:52 pm »
Part of this matrix

Offline wileyc

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Re: Lead seal
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2011, 08:59:15 pm »
well it looks pretty close to a die match for the top one 2nd from left  :-\

I suppose though it leaves me with more questions, most I would surmise one can only speculate:


1) are these designed for the express focus of forgery/resale

2) who makes them

3) are they hard to make?

4) at what point in the market are they typically entered

5) why a fake like this mixed in with mid level slightly dirty byzantine AE follis's, I could more easily  understand possibly being sold separately

Artificially patination is not new to me, but I am impressed with the encrustations and mineral deposits on this coin. I have messed around ancients for half a dozen yrs, not as long nor the breadth that many have here, but still. I have been cleaning coins for the same length and try to keep abreast of forgery's. I would just like to learn more with this as a example

Thanks

cw


Offline wileyc

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Re: Lead seal
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2011, 04:56:49 pm »
here are a few pictures to reflect my question

Offline Gert

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Re: Lead seal
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2011, 04:05:48 am »
Pant, thanks for the photo's. As for your questions, cw, money will be the chief motivator to make these. I don't think it will cost much to produce these fakes, nor will it be very difficult to someone who produces fake coins to produce the dies for them. Maybe they even used medieval seals and early modern seals to overstrike, as the channel within the seal would be hard to fake.

One more question for Pant: do all of these seals have channels - or the attempt to fake a channel?

In any case, looking at the pictures Pant posted, the artistry is low, the style is off and the letter style is a mix of different languages (Latin, Greek, Cyrillic) and time periods. These would not fool experienced collectors and dealers of Byzantine seals, I think.
As for the added dirt, I suppose forgers will try to think of all kinds of clever methods to add dirt or residu to make their clean fakes look ancient. I suggest you use a microscope to look at this dirt.
Regards
Gert

 

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