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Author Topic: hi all,what is the biblical coins?  (Read 4571 times)

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Offline Salem Alshdaifat

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hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« on: January 27, 2004, 06:31:29 am »
hi all to this section of forum discussion ,first of all I would like to thank Joe and Alex, for this section ,and hope it will be useful l for all the members.
what is the biblical coins? a lot agree that it is the coins that mint in the holy land ,and some said it is all the coins that minted in the cites that mentioned  in the bible ,but how we look to the bible ,is it the book it self ?or where the book took place in ?,is it the god words ?,or where the actions in the bible and the history of the bible took place?.
for me I think the view should be wider and we have to consider all Palstaine , trans Jordan ,south Syria ,south Lebanon  ,as a biblical  area, and holy land ,so even the cites that never mintiond in the bible, in its two sections the old and new testaments are biblical cites and lands ,because there where the actions took place ,and Jesus ,Moses ,Suliman, David ,John ,and other prophets(peace be upon them all) pass through that land ,and through it villages and towns  and cites ,valleys  ,mountains ,rivers , so all these parts are holy and biblical in the same time.
but what is the period of the biblical time is all the coins that still struck until today are biblical?
no way I think that we should count the era of the bible from the earliest coinage in the holy land until Jesus (peace upon him) life time because that’s when the bible took place, some said until the bible was written in the 4th century but these are my thoughts and what is logical  for me why should we consider an era that came after the bible took place as biblical, for that we have to consider all the coins that minted in holy land until now as biblical ,and why to consider it up to when it written ?  we have to consider the bible for it self and when it took place ,even after Jesus his flowers wrote what he said, so it is the life time of Jesus what we have to call as the end of the biblical time ,I know a lot might disagree with me but this is my logic about the biblical coins.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2004, 12:55:14 pm »
All the books of the New Testament were written in the second half of the First or the first half of the Second Century AD, with bits of later editing. When people say that it was 'written' in the 4th Century this is a rather unclear reference to the fact that the canon (official list of approved books) was finalised then. In earlier times there were 'holy writings' or scriptures, but no 'Bible' as we know it. For nstance. I Enoch was considered 'holy' by some, and is quoted in the New Testament, but was excluded from the Bible of every church except the Ethiopian Orthodox. I think the 'Biblical' period is best seen as lasting until the New Testament books were all written, since they often address situations which arose well after Jesus' time, so I would include the Judea Capta issues and the bar Kochba coinage as 'Biblical' issues.
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Offline Salem Alshdaifat

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2004, 01:41:10 pm »
dear Robert,firest excuse my english,the bible parts was written as you said,but the bible as we know now collected at the 4th century,the point for me as i mintion is why we dont call the biblical coins up to the time of the bible it self , in Jesus (pbuh) time ,we can call the judaea capta and the barkhoba war as coins related to the bibl,and so tyre shekel and the nabatean coins,why we dont take the word biblical in it real meaning ?
and why to consider the coins that took place after Jesus life time as biblical?
i think that the bibl is conected to Jesus life time,still as i said my won thoughts,alot will disagree and alot might agree ,but i like to know the others thoughts about this point ,and i will be so happy if some elss will join this conversation to see what others think about this matter.
thanks indeed dear Robert

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2004, 01:59:35 pm »
The reason why they aren't included is that by then the books had been written, and only the most minor of editing was still going on. Its a period which is vital to the history of the church, which includes the selection of the books, but it didn't influence the content of those books.
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vic9128

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2004, 04:18:18 pm »
 Wayne Sayles thinks there are three types of coins that can be called Biblical: first the Jewish coins that date back to the Persian period. Secondly the coins of the Romans struck in Judaea and surrounding provinces, and third are coins struck not by or for the Jewish people but circulated in Judaea. Me personally I believe that Biblical coins themselves are the ones  referred to in the Bible like the widows mite and tribute penny or in a round about way shekels of tyre which many believe were the 30 pieces of silver coin or a coin issued by someone in the Bible like Herod the Great. This is Biblical and Judean coins though and coinage of Judea encompasses a lot.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2004, 06:03:34 pm »
But which types exactly would these be? To take just one example, which denaruis does the text about tribute refer to? (I don't see the point in using the word 'penny'; the idea of a penny as a high-value silver coin is at least as strange to the modern mind as a denarius, so we might as well use the term actually used by the Biblical authors!) All the text says is 'Caesar', it doesn't specify which Caesar. The story is actually about the legitimacy of Roman authority, not about a particular ruler, so I'd argue that its actually irrelevant. Then if you want to say its the emperor ruling at the time, would that be the time the story takes place, or the time the passage was written, since it was obviously written for the benefit of 'Mark's' (or 'Matthew's' or 'Luke's') audience? This would be Vespasian in the first case, probably Domitian in the second, and anyone from Nerva to Hadrian in the third, depending on which scholar you happen to be reading. But then if 'Mark' used a pre-existing document or documents, then it could easily be Nero. The harder you look, the less clear the answer becomes, which is why I prefer to broaden it to include the whole period.
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vic9128

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2004, 06:25:25 pm »
 The Bible makes no mention of a specific type of coin but since it says render unto Caesar at the time of Tberius his denarius is known as the tribute penny. I did not decide to call it this but rather conform with accepted wisdom.To me Biblical coinage has always meant coins that are associated with the era of the Bible not when the Bible was written.

jdefalco

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2004, 09:09:45 pm »
Here's another one I consider biblical:  The Judea Capta series.

Judea was subjugated well after Jesus walked the earth, but the destruction of the temple is mentioned in the Gospels.  ("destroy this temple, and I will rebuild it in three days").

vic9128

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2004, 09:26:33 pm »
 This is off topic but the verse you mentioned is alluding to his resurrection and is just a parable.

jdefalco

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2004, 10:27:12 pm »
Yes, but according to some scholars it dates the Gospel(specifically Mark I believe) as being written shortly after the time of the temple's destruction & addressed to the Jewish-Christian community still in Judea or with recent memory of the Roman Wars.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2004, 01:57:01 am »
The destruction of theTemple is alluded to in the Gospels, but I think you picked the wrong quotation, as this one spiritualises it. Mark 13:2 is more like it: 'You see these great stones? Not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down'. This statement is an important reason why the Gospel is believed to have been written after 70.
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Offline Salem Alshdaifat

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2004, 08:55:50 am »
i dont think we will reach apoint to agree all at,because all the scholers try to and they never did,some say this and some say that,like the word penny it self ,it wasent in use at the bibl time or even after for along time,and the same as the caesar who mintion in JESUS (peace be upon him ) words ,who is the caesar,in that time we know there were more than one caesar at the same time,and if we folow our dupts we will never know what the old or new tastemant means ,because we know the holy books transelated from Aramic to Greek to roman and then to other languages,so that why i incaruge nameing all the coins from earlist coinage in judaea ,palstaine,trans jordan,south syria,south lebanon,to the time of JUSUS (PBUH) as biblical coins or elss we will just look in detailes that are not sure and will lost the real meaning of biblical coins,and any other judaea or nabatean ,selioked,ptolemy,that related to that area we can call them related biblical coinage.
any way these still our veiw for this issue and i am happy to share it with you who are intristed in this feild of coinage and who are members in forum thank you all for helping me and making me seeing such anice and inteligant thoughts.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2004, 12:31:47 pm »
If all the scholars ever get to the point of agreeing, they'll either find something else to disagree on or give up and become bus drivers. All the fun and most of the kudos lies in arguing!
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bruce61813

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2004, 01:34:22 pm »
You could argue the time frame from the Babalonians - so any of the BC Greek/Phoenecian/whoever?  coins form the general region would work - to about 100 - 120 AD. Just couldn't help the comment.


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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2004, 01:54:04 pm »
I agree.  Any coin form that part of the world, up to the approximate end of the biblical era should work.  My personal opinion is that it should end with the creation of the diaspora because that is the dispursal of the biblical people.  After many of the Jews were carted off as slaves, non-biblical people entered and took over. but any coin through the 100's CE would be ok.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2004, 02:18:48 pm »
The diaspora already existed before New Testament times, so that won't really work. There were major Jewish communities in Babylon, Alexandria, and many other cities.
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bruce61813

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2004, 02:45:55 pm »
Robert, that is why I left the BCE as open ended - it is easier to set a CE end point, but BCE is harder. As you pointed pointed out there was a great deal of flux in the entire region. Coinage really didn't exist until the 400 BCE region, or so, you could be safe with that time frame, or leave the BCE open, as trade passed through that region of the world form all regions.

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2004, 02:47:28 pm »
Robert: Yes, but the major Jewish community center was still in Judea (jerusalem in particular). With the complete and utter destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, the Jews were left homeless and were scattered as far as Spain.  The Romans destroyed any semblance of central authority by wiping out both the temple and the city.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2004, 03:42:41 pm »
That's one reason why I take the bar Kochba coinage as the last relevant 'Biblical' coins, even though the NT may  not have been complete at that point. You have to have a cutoff point somewhere, but the diaspora was something which had been growing for centuries; it didnt suddenly come into being.
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Offline Ecgþeow

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2004, 04:10:48 pm »
That's one reason why I take the bar Kochba coinage as the last relevant 'Biblical' coins, even though the NT may  not have been complete at that point. You have to have a cutoff point somewhere, but the diaspora was something which had been growing for centuries; it didnt suddenly come into being.

Yes, the Bar Kochba was the final nail in the coffin, so that's a good date to use.I agree, that should be the cutoff for "biblical coinage".  Wit the construction of Aelia Capitolina, the Jews were no longer a part of Jerusalem.  It was distinctly Roman, thus ending an age of Jewish political significance in the area.

Offline Salem Alshdaifat

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Re:hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2004, 06:04:53 pm »
heheh ,we have an arabic says(byzantian argue) that mean when you discus some thing and each side keep his thoughts and die for it,the good thing that i see our argue is not byzantian,realy each member gave anice and good point to consider,but still the views might get affect with relagin some time,each one of us might disagree with any scholer but not with his relagen, muslims think that the bible sent to Jesus from god ,and all the bible get compleated through his life time,and what ever after is teaches or expleanations for the bible it self from the belivers, and christian might have another thoughts ,and so jew ,i respect all relagens and all those great chosen men from god(peace be upon all of them) ,but some time we have to consider that god cant send every thing in his message , and cant explaine every things because his knolowdge is much more beond our thoughts and it needs thousands of books to explaine evry thing.
so i wish if we leave relagane aside and just say what we belive and what we think , i am amuslim but i am intristed in judaea and biblical coins, and i like those coins more than any coins ever existed, i wont exchange an antipas coin with a gold denarri for titus or islamic golden coin .
all of us know how many times the temple get distroied and how many times the jew took out of judaea through the history by force, and all of us know how many scholer and gosbale there is, and all of us know that Jesus found sapurt out side palstine and judaea,like trans jordan and there are in jordan the oldest churchs in the whole world just 10 km of my home they found achurch in ruins that containe 16 churchs and this new one was 100 years after Jesus ,i viset it many times, the history is so complex and the scholers never agree at apoint,hehhe i know we will argue alot and will never agree at all points,i just want this section to be as it name biblical wich mean peace , love , understanding , high manars.
thanks all

Offline Cleisthenes

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Re: hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2006, 07:14:13 am »
This is a very interesting conversation.  In reference to the "Tribute Penny:"  there is a good article about this issue on the FORVM website in the Resources section entitled,"No Tribute Penny?"  It is written by James S. Wilk, M.D.  In his conclusion Dr. Wilk notes that it is impossible to determine the exact coin that Christ used to illustrate His point, ergo, the subject is moot. 

I am very attracted to coins of The First Jewish Revolt.  What factors make them so relatively expensive?
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Offline Salem Alshdaifat

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Re: hi all,what is the biblical coins?
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2006, 08:37:56 pm »
Hi Cleisthenes
about the coins of the Jewish war you can find the bronze coins in big amounts every where and here at FORVM you can find them in good prices.
about the silver coins they are not as expinsive as befor actuly they are in good prices these days than 5 and more years due to several Hoards found in the past years, the expinsive still is the year one and not all but the rarest types and year four and five, because they didnt struck them in big amounts.
any other quastion I will be happy to help.
all the best
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