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Author Topic: MFB Man Faced Bull types  (Read 26343 times)

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Offline Andrew McCabe

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MFB Man Faced Bull types
« on: October 19, 2014, 01:17:32 pm »
Nick

It would be very helpful if you would ask for one or other of the main MFB threads to be stickied, and even that several of the threads be combined. This is about the 10th time I've come to the subject of MFBs and wondered which thread I should attach a response to, and why anyway was there a scattershot of threads rather than a continuing Stickie that would ensure the lesser discussions were not lost.

That grumpiness out of the way, I have some new information from you, an extract from an history book, that discusses MFBs. Michael P. Fronda, Between Rome and Carthage: Southern Italy during the Second Punic War.   Cambridge:  Cambridge University Press, 2010.  Pp. xxviii, 374.  ISBN 9780521516945.

See attachments. First is main text, second are two footnotes that discuss MFBs.

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB, Naples, Nola and Cumae / also Stickie?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2014, 07:14:15 am »
Thanks for pointing out this thread, Andrew, and for providing the excerpts from the book.  He gives a really nice overview!

About a stickie, I like the idea but the trouble with doing it is, the many MFB threads, while all bound by the iconography, seem appropriate for specific boards:


1. There's my personal MFB gallery thread

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=92932.0

2. The website update thread

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=80983.msg606005#new

3. Many identification threads (e.g. is this an MFB?  I can think of Pantikapaion, Athens, and Methymna right off the bat)

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=97896.0 (Methymna)

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=93629.0 ("Athens")

4. A few language translation threads (there's an Eckhel thread and a C. Weiss thread, plus a few others)

Alfoldi:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=99980.msg618527#msg618527

5. The general "River Gods" thread already on the Classical Numismatics board.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=46877.0

6. Very specific MFB coin threads, like the "Romaion" MFB thread you participated in awhile back.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=95156.0

7.  Other ID and forgery threads submitted from other members. plus my own Panormos "tooled" thread

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=96180.0

Sileraioi fakes:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=100141.0

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=99282.0

8. Other related threads, like Panortmos/Sys, Distribution Map, etc.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=95083.0 (Panormos)

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=88972.0 (Distribution Map)

And my websites:

Bronze:  https://manfacedbulls.wordpress.com/
Silver:  https://manfacedbullsar.wordpress.com/
Gold: https://manfacedbullsau.wordpress.com/


Perhaps we actually need an MFB board!  (just kidding)  Or, perhaps I can insert links to this reply (when I get a chance) and we can sticky this thread?

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: MFB, Naples, Nola and Cumae / also Stickie?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2014, 08:59:32 am »
I think it's worth citing Fronda in your intended MFB book, because he is the premier historian of the second Punic war today, and therefore his insights into what coin type commonality mean for historic alliances etc. will resonate more than if the observations were made by a non-historian numismatist. He is pointing out especially close alliances that happen to mirror in especially close coin types. The same point he makes regarding Campania might have wider applicability.

Stickie: It might be worthwhile asking a moderator to sticky the Maps discussion (probably the most enduring) and combining it with the website update threads (they can all be merged in date order), and with any other threads that address MFBs as their sole subject e.g. ROMAION, but not River Gods. Then add on your reply above, and use that as the foundation thread where people can dump further MFB observations as they wish. All this is presuming that a gentle moderator would agree to (a) Stickie (b) merging some threads you point to. There's a comparable long running Stickie on legionary denarii that is probably much less important than this subject, so I'm hopeful.

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB, Naples, Nola and Cumae / also Stickie?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2014, 02:47:36 pm »
I think it's worth citing Fronda in your intended MFB book, because he is the premier historian of the second Punic war today, and therefore his insights into what coin type commonality mean for historic alliances etc. will resonate more than if the observations were made by a non-historian numismatist. He is pointing out especially close alliances that happen to mirror in especially close coin types. The same point he makes regarding Campania might have wider applicability.

Stickie: It might be worthwhile asking a moderator to sticky the Maps discussion (probably the most enduring) and combining it with the website update threads (they can all be merged in date order), and with any other threads that address MFBs as their sole subject e.g. ROMAION, but not River Gods. Then add on your reply above, and use that as the foundation thread where people can dump further MFB observations as they wish. All this is presuming that a gentle moderator would agree to (a) Stickie (b) merging some threads you point to. There's a comparable long running Stickie on legionary denarii that is probably much less important than this subject, so I'm hopeful.

Thanks, Andrew.  The common coin types are interesting  but we also have cases of rivals employing MFBs contemporaneously, like Ambrakia and Akarnania.  Although, the history of allegiances in that area from the 5th through 1st century isn't as clear cut as other areas.

Thanks Dino for the stickie.

Offline Molinari

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Sambon-Taliercio Correspondences
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2015, 08:20:25 am »
For those interested, here is a preliminary list of all Sambon bronze man-faced bull coins from Neapolis with corresponding Taliercio numbers.  I'll add HN Italy at some point.  I didn't add coins minted at Neapolis for other areas.  

Sambon-Taliercio
560- Ib, 1
561- Ia, 4/Ib, 2
562- Ia, 3
563-   Ib, 3
564-   Ib, 5
565   
566-   Ic, 4
567-   Ib, 6
568-   t.I-IIb, 1
569   
570   
571-   Ib, 7
572-   Ic, 1
573-   Ic, 3
574   
575   
576- Id, 1
577   
578- Id, 2
579-   Id, 7
580-   t.I-IIc, 1
581- IId, 1
582-t.I-IIc, 4
583-IId, 4
584-   IId, 6
585- IId,10
586-IId, 2
587-IId, 11
588   
589-IId, 15
590-IId, 17
591-IId, 18
592-IId, 20
593-IIc, 1
594-IIc, 3
595   
596- IIc, 5
597   
598- IIc, 4
599-IIc, 6
600a-IIc, 7
601+/b- IIc, 12/IIc, 11
602   
603- IVf, 2
604-IVf, 3
605-IVf, 6
606   
607-IVf, 5
608-IVf, 7
609   
610   
611   
612-t.I-IIa, 1
613-IIa, 1
614-IIa, 4
615   
616-IIa, 3
617-IIa, 17
618   IIa16
619   
620-IIa, 20
621-IIa, 13
622-IIa, 15
623-IIa, 5
624-IIa, 18
625-IIa, 26
626a/b-IIa, 27/IIa, 28
627-IIa, 19
628-IIa, 8
629a-IIa, 7
630-IIa, 9
631-IIa, 10
632-IIa, 11
633-IIa, 29
634/c-IIa, 24/IIa, 25
635-IIa, 30
636-IIa, 32
637-IIa, 40
638-IIa, 38
639-IIa, 31
640-IIa, 37
641   
642   
643-IIa, 21
644-IIa, 12
645   
646-IIa, 34
647-IIa, 33
648-IIa, 35
649-IIa, 23
650-IIa, 6
651-IIIa, 1
652-IIIa, 5
653-IIIa, 4
654-IIIa, 3
655-IIIa, 7
656-IIIa, 6
657-IIIa, 8
658-IIIa, 10
659-IIIa, 11
660-IIIa, 14
661-IIIa, 13
662-IIIa, 12
663-IIIa, 16
664-IIIa, 22
665a/b-IIIa, 24/IIIa, 20
666   
667-IIIa, 27
668-IIIa, 29
669-IIIa, 32
670-IIIa, 33
671   
672-IIIa, 34
673   
674-IIIa, 40
675-IIIa, 37
676-IIIa, 39
677-IIIa, 38
678-IIIa, 43
679   
680   
681   
682   
683-IIIa, 45
684-IIIa, 46
685   
686-IIIa, 47
687a/b-IIIa, 50/IIIa, 53
688-IIIa, 51
689-IIIa, 55
690-IIIa, 56
691   
692   
693   
694   
695   
696   
697-IVd, 1
698-IIIb, 1
699-IVd, 9
700-IVd, 7
701-IVd, 4
702-IVd, 2
703   
704-IVd, 5
705   
706   
707   
   Ia, 1
   Ia, 2
   Ia, 5
   Ia, 6
   Ib, 4
   Ib, 8
   Ic, 2
   Ic, 5
   Id, 2
   Id, 4
   Id, 5
   Id, 6
   t.I-IIb, 1
   t.I-IIc, 2
   t.I-IIc, 3
   IIa, 14
   IIa, 22
   IIa, 36
   IIa, 39
   IIc, 2
   IIc, 8
   IIc, 9
   IIc, 10
   IIc, 13
   IId, 3
   IId, 5
   IId, 7
   IId, 8
   IId, 9
   IId, 12
   IId, 13
   IId, 14
   IId, 16
   IId, 19
   IId, 21
   IIIa, 2
   IIIa, 9
   IIIa, 15
   IIIa, 17
   IIIa, 18
   IIIa, 19
   IIIa, 21
   IIIa, 23
   IIIa, 25
   IIIa, 26
   IIIa, 28
   IIIa, 30
   IIIa, 31
   IIIa, 35
   IIIa, 36
   IIIa, 41
   IIIa, 42
   IIIa, 44
   IIIa, 48
   IIIa, 49
   IIIa, 52
   IIIa, 54
   IIIb, 2
   IIIb, 3
   IIIb, 4
   IVd, 3
   IVd, 6
   IVd, 8
   IVd, 10
   IVf, 1
   IVf, 4

Offline Molinari

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Pighius' Agricultural Allegory Illustration, 1615
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2015, 12:29:09 pm »
Pighius' illustration for his argument that the man-faced bull is an agricultural allegory, from:

Pighius, Stephanus Vinandus, Silvester Pardo, and Andreas Schottus. 1615. Annales Magistratvvm Et Provinciar. S. P. Q. R. Ab Vrbe Condita: Incomparabili Labore Et Indvstria Ex Avctorvm Antiqvitatvmq. Varieis Monimenteis Svppleti Per Stephanvm Vinandvm Pighivm Campensem ; In Qveis Reipvblicae Mvtationes Potestatvm Ac Imperiorvm Svccessiones Acta Leges Bella Clades Victoriae Manibiae Atq. Trivmphi Nec Non Inlvstria Stemmata Familiarvmq. Propagines Ad Annos Et Tempora Sva Redvcvntvr ; Opus non solùm Historiæ Rom. Artiumq[ue] liberalium sed etiam omnis humani Iuris & antiqui Politeumatis studiosis vtilissimum. Antverpiae: Officina Plantiniana.

Offline Molinari

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La Chau and Le Blonde Agricultural Allegory Illustration
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2015, 12:38:28 pm »
And here is the illustration from La Chau and Le Blonde:

La Chau, Géraud de, Le Blond, and François Thomas Marie de Baculard d' Arnaud. 1780. Description des principales pierres gravées du cabinet de S.A.S. Monseigneur le duc d'Orleans. Paris: Pissot. p.126.

If you've never looked through this book, I recommend you do so.  Some of the best coin illustrations I've ever seen!

Offline JBF

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2015, 12:39:08 am »
What is Pighius' argument?

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2015, 07:05:14 am »
More or less an argument that it is not Achelous, with the likely alternative being a general agricultural allegory.  I haven't read his argument (Latin) but I read La Chau and Le Blonde (French), and according to Eckhel they are all very similar.

Offline JBF

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2015, 08:23:53 pm »
If you find anymore details about the allegory or a translation of it, please PM me.

What does La Chau and Le Blonde say?  (I don't read French).

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2015, 08:58:33 pm »
I've got a friend doing a full translation now so I will send it along when it is complete.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2015, 09:29:48 pm »
I'd be interested in the translation too, and the original. How long is it?
Curtis Clay

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2015, 07:09:47 am »
Very short: 2-3 pages.

Offline Enodia

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2015, 01:06:48 pm »
i'd be interested in reading the translation also.

but to me (and i know this is a bit of a stretch) neither of the above images eliminates the MFB as a river symbol.
especially in the first image we could be seeing the bull being harnessed as an allegory for controlled irrigation. this is not as clear in the second image, but it doesn't necessarily deny it either. grain can't grow without water.

as i said, this is a stretch. i'm sure the text clarifies the authors pov much better.

just thinking out loud,
~ Peter

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2015, 06:26:57 pm »
Peter, That's really the problem with the agriculture allegory- of course it is true (even for Acheloos) but it doesn't answer the question of identity.  Even Eckhel said his theory that the man-faced bull is Dionysis is perfectly consistent with the agricultural allegory.

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2015, 08:15:10 pm »
Ok, so I just reread the manuscript, which I will photograph and post tomorrow.

He first argues that it is not Achelous because it wouldn't make sense for the people of Naples and Nola to have an Akarnanian (he says Aetolian and Akarnanian) God on their coins, so Naples adopted the iconography just like the Akarnanians (Sophocles' description of Achelous does not say he is a man-faced bull, but bearded with ox-like face).

Then he argues it isn't the Minotaur based on the descriptions from Ovid and Apollodorus.  Many of the earlier scholars thought it was the Minotaur (he mentions Spanheim and Beger)

Then he argues it must be an agricultural allegory.  I think his argument is that the basic breaking of the horn is a symbol of agricultural abundance and also that taming the bull (symbolized with Victory above the man-faced bull) leads to agricultural success.  Why else have victory above Achelous, the notorious loser? (Note: Taylor uses this same argument in a recent still-unpublished essay, so I'll have to send him a note that it was used here).

Offline Enodia

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2015, 10:05:01 pm »
He first argues that it is not Achelous because it wouldn't make sense for the people of Naples and Nola to have an Akarnanian (he says Aetolian) God on their coins, so Naples adopted the iconography just like the Akarnanians.

i'm certainly not knowledgeable enough to make an intelligent argument here, but the statement quoted above doesn't seem anywhere close to definitive to me.
it doesn't make sense that the Corinthians would use an image of the eponymous goddess of Athens on their coinage either, but there is Athena gracing many of those beautiful colts.

however, even accepting that the image is an allegory for an agricultural deity, does that necessarily eliminate Achelous? i caught your earlier post Nick, just playing the devil's advocate here (and i can even see the argument for Dionysus at least as a fertility god, if not specifically agricultural).

i'm going to check my various Burkerts now and see if he can cast any religious light here.

~ Peter

Offline JBF

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2015, 11:47:50 pm »
I tend to think that Neapolis, Nola and Hyria got the idea of a standing mfb from 1) the mfb of Laos, turning around, 2) the standing bull of Poseidonia.  Now there may be heavy religious symbolism, alliances, or just a 'hey that's cool, let's do that on our coinage."  I tend to also think that the agricultural allegorical interpretation doesn't hold much water;)
But, I would like to read it in person, or at least in translation. (and, it may have its usefulness).

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2015, 09:03:38 am »
He first argues that it is not Achelous because it wouldn't make sense for the people of Naples and Nola to have an Akarnanian (he says Aetolian) God on their coins, so Naples adopted the iconography just like the Akarnanians.

i'm certainly not knowledgeable enough to make an intelligent argument here, but the statement quoted above doesn't seem anywhere close to definitive to me.
it doesn't make sense that the Corinthians would use an image of the eponymous goddess of Athens on their coinage either, but there is Athena gracing many of those beautiful colts.

however, even accepting that the image is an allegory for an agricultural deity, does that necessarily eliminate Achelous? i caught your earlier post Nick, just playing the devil's advocate here (and i can even see the argument for Dionysus at least as a fertility god, if not specifically agricultural).

i'm going to check my various Burkerts now and see if he can cast any religious light here.

~ Peter

I'll happily send you our manuscript for a preview, which discusses all of this in-depth (you know how thorough Nico is!).  Only one condition- you alert me to any typos I missed!!

Offline Enodia

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2015, 02:29:41 pm »
it's a deal!  (or should i say, "deal a it's?")   ;) 

~ Peter

Offline Molinari

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2015, 07:24:05 am »
Sorry for the delay.  Here is the La Chau and Le Blond essay:

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2015, 07:25:32 am »
And the last two pages.  If I've missed anything essential in their argument please let me know.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2015, 10:35:40 am »
And the last two pages.  If I've missed anything essential in their argument please let me know.

But you're having the French translated into English so you can see for yourself, right?

I assume the translation will be correct, but if you post the text I'll be happy to check!
Curtis Clay

Offline Brennos

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2015, 11:16:27 am »
Be careful , the text is written in "old french" and i guess not very easy to translate... Do not hesitate if you need help (french is my mother tongue).

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Re: MFB Man Faced Bull types
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2015, 12:38:14 pm »
The translator is actually a very bright student at my school, and I'm hoping he can complete it soon. I've just emailed to ask about his progress so perhaps if he is having too much difficulty, you could provide me with the essentials, Brennos? I've mostly ignored these arguments because they are so obviously true, but perhaps his arguments against Acheloos are relevant.

 

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