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Author Topic: Votif ID help please  (Read 1340 times)

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Offline Brian L

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Votif ID help please
« on: June 25, 2009, 06:11:01 pm »
Hello,
obv-CONSTANTI NVSMAXAVG

rev-DN CONSTANINI MAX AVG- VOT dot XXX within wreath

Can someone confirm this as a RIC VII Heraclea 93,
on Helvetica's it should have a "plain, ladder shaped diadem with dots",
but I haven't found one with the diadem as mine.
Thank you
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Offline Noah

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2009, 10:25:27 pm »
It looks more like: Heraclea RIC VII 106 (variant)


Constantine AE3. AD 329-330. CONSTANTI-NVS MAX AVG, florette diadem-laureate, draped & cuirassed bust right / D N CONSTANTINI MAX AVG, VOT XXX in wreath, *SMHB in ex.

Your florette diadem just seems to be stylized differently by the celator. RIC VII 93 has SMHA in exergue, yours has SMHB.

Best, Noah

Offline Brian L

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2009, 12:03:18 am »
Thanks for the reply,Noah
My diadem looks like the 106, but 106 is * SMHB and VOT  XXX
Mine is dot SMHB and VOT dot XXX.
Following Helveticas my guess is its a 93
but I cant find a pix of what Helvetica describes as a  "plain, ladder shaped diadem with dots".
Any other thoughts?
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Offline Diederik

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2009, 03:20:33 am »
Like this one?

Frans

Offline Noah

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2009, 06:35:36 am »
Well, that does have the VOT  :dot: XXX, but the exergue is  :dot: SMHB and the obverse legend is CONSTANTINI MAX AVG on brian l's coin. 

Best, Noah

Offline Diederik

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2009, 10:13:14 am »
Quote
but I cant find a pix of what Helvetica describes as a  "plain, ladder shaped diadem with dots"
I think my picture fits that description.

Frans

Offline Brian L

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2009, 10:37:42 am »
Hi Frans,
What I meant was,
If mine is a Heraclea 93,according to Helvetica,
it should have what she describes as a "plain, ladder shaped diadem with dots".
My coin has a different diadem than yours,
so I still dont know if mine is a 93 "plain, ladder shaped diadem with dots" ???

"Is there anybody out there" Pinkus Floydicus
with a pix of a "plain, ladder shaped diadem with dots" that their sure off ?
Those who stand for nothing,will fall for anything.- Alexander Hamilton
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Offline Diederik

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2009, 03:55:46 pm »
Well, NO, it is not a ladder-shaped diadem.
Here's another one for comparison.(it is SMHA and not? in RIC either)
There is an extensive footnote to RIC 93 stating that the number of different forms of diadems is big.


Frans

Offline Brian L

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2009, 04:06:32 pm »
OK,
I guess I'll call it a 93,
this is not a discussion of the name of the diadem
just that is a description of the type of diadem.
I still have to call it something in my records
so I will go with Helveticas "plain, ladder shaped diadem with dots"
Thanks for the replies.

Those who stand for nothing,will fall for anything.- Alexander Hamilton
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Offline Mark Z

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2009, 04:47:56 pm »
We had a similar (fantastic) discussion of diadems last year:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=47399.0

I ended up selling this coin, but now I wish I would've kept it.

mz

Sri_Sahi

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2009, 06:15:53 pm »
brian, your coin is best described as "RIC 93/94". There is no clear distinction given between what should be subsumed under RIC 93 "plain diadem" (ladder) and RIC 94 "rosette diadem". The footnotes reveal a great deal of confusion. In effect, many of these are neither simple ladder nor simple rosette diadems but variations with elements of each. For example, the footnote for 93 includes "rosettes inserted on a band diadem" and another variant "with laurel leaves inserted every second segment, end rosette". The note after 94 suggests that one variant should be regarded as a "ladder shaped diadem with end rosette". Some examples have rather squarish rosettes which begin to look like ladder segments. It probably would have been better for the authors to have listed all under a single number. All variants are rare, the most common being an R2, most R4 or R5.

The only way to assign a RIC number is with the book in hand, your Helvetica may be useful (I don't know, I'm not familiar with it) but in this case it is misleading at best. If you can't afford RIC, LRBC ("Late Roman Bronze Coins") by Carson, Hill & Kent is very useful.

btw - Noah's note above that 93 is "officina A" is incorrect. Both 93 and 94 are attested for officinae A, B,  :Greek_Gamma: and  :Greek_Delta:.

Offline Brian L

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2009, 06:37:44 pm »
Sri_Sahi
Can I ask,what reference you're using?
thanks
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Sri_Sahi

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2009, 07:22:04 pm »
This must be a trick question. I'm using RIC VII.

Offline Brian L

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2009, 07:24:33 pm »
I didn't know
Those who stand for nothing,will fall for anything.- Alexander Hamilton
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Offline Noah

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2009, 09:02:19 pm »
brian, your coin is best described as "RIC 93/94". There is no clear distinction given between what should be subsumed under RIC 93 "plain diadem" (ladder) and RIC 94 "rosette diadem". The footnotes reveal a great deal of confusion.

I do agree with this assessment after checking in RIC (which I had to borrow).  The footnote does indeed demonstrate a level of confusion. 

Clarification:  Sri_Sahi, I was not implying that it was officina A.  I simply did not have RIC at the time and was not certain what all the variations in the exergue were.  I was only stating at the time that brian l's coin was officina B.  My wording was just confusing.

Best, Noah

Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2009, 09:03:38 pm »
Can someone confirm this as a RIC VII Heraclea 93,
on Helvetica's it should have a "plain, ladder shaped diadem with dots",
but I haven't found one with the diadem as mine.

Your coin is RIC 94 - that's a classic rosette diadem with alternating pairs of laurel leaves and rosettes, with a larger brooch-like element at the forehead.

RIC VII does a horrible job of classifying diadems, lumping them all into the plain/pearl/rosette categories. The reality is that at Heraclea alone there are around a dozen diadem variations of one degree or another (none of which are pearl).

I think what RIC was trying to capture (or at least should have been trying to) with the basic plain vs rosette dichotomy is the fact that when the diadem was first introduced it was of one structural form - either a plain band, or of a boxy (ladder-like) construction - these all being "plain" diadems, then a few years later it switched to a different structural form - the laurel and rosette with forehead brooch-like element, this being the "rosette" diadem (referred to in RIC VIII, where it sees continued usage, as "laurel & rosette" diadem). On Constantine's gold and silver coinage these early/plain and later/rosette forms are quite distinct.

The trouble is that on Constantine's bronze coinage - especially at the eastern mints surrounding Constantinople - there are a very large variety of "plain" diadems (some with components that, absent guidance from RIC, one might think could/should be described as "rosettes"), and secondly the transition from plain to true rosette diadems involves a number of transitional forms that therefore don't fully belong in either category.

Ben

Offline Brian L

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2009, 07:35:41 am »
Thanks all,
this is getting some great posts.
I don't have RIC so I use Wildwinds,Dirty old Coins and Helveticas lists and others.
Of course I have been looking this coin up everywhere and it brings me back to the old problem,
Are there mistakes in these references?
the Heraclea 94 is listed as:
In WildwindsCONSTANTINVS AVG
In DOC: CONSTANTINVSMAXAVG
My coin says CONSTANTI-NVS MAX AVG
So I dont know what to call it.




Those who stand for nothing,will fall for anything.- Alexander Hamilton
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Offline Heliodromus

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2009, 07:48:46 am »
RIC 94 is correct.

Of those three sources, Helvetica's lists are going to be the most accurate since they were copied from RIC.

'Helvetica" (Dane) just recently became the administrator of the Wildwinds site, after the sad passing of it's original creator, Dave Surber, so if there are any discrepencies between Wildwinds and her spreadsheets I'm sure she'd like to be informed. In this case note that the Wildwinds attribution is correct (see the coin image - MAX AVG), just the description is wrong.

Your coin is definitely RIC 94 though - I'm going by RIC itself.

Ben

Offline Noah

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2009, 07:53:57 am »
After reviewing RIC and reading the possible matches and the footnotes, I agree with Ben.

Best, Noah

Offline Brian L

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Re: Votif ID help please
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2009, 08:26:14 am »
I'm convinced  ;D
Thanks for the look up and time spent,guys
Take care
Those who stand for nothing,will fall for anything.- Alexander Hamilton
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