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Author Topic: Zeno modern machine?  (Read 626 times)

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Offline Flav V

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Zeno modern machine?
« on: May 04, 2021, 12:08:52 pm »
Hello,

Do you consider those marks as made by modern machine? (photo zoom) on the letter T and O on the reverse, we see parallel lines. they are on other letters too but clearly visible and the T and O.

Photos are the biggest i have. I now know how to give you better photos  ;)

Offline Din X

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Re: Zeno modern machine?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2021, 01:53:49 pm »
This is normal you can find this on some Aurei and Solidii if they were struck from completely fresh dies, this are actually traces from die cutting tools.
You have to know the differences between die cutting tools used in ancient and modern times from forgers.
And some forgers are using same die cutting tools like in ancient times.
And there was another way, Romans did not always cut out letters with tools, they could punch in letters in dies with punchmarks

Here an Re two authentic coins with such traces on letters, I have seen many 100% authentic coins with such, but this traces from die cutting tolls are very often not so good visible anymore beacuse they wear out fast in dies and will only be visible on coins minted form really fresh dies in later die states they seem to disappear, we have to consider that the letters often show flow lines from metal flow, this metal flow can erode in dies and this metal flow can erase this traces of die cutting tools very fast.


Offline Callimachus

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Re: Zeno modern machine?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2021, 10:02:04 pm »

Offline Hydatius

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Re: Zeno modern machine?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2021, 07:53:54 am »
I certainly don't see anything suspicious about this coin.
Richard
Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine quam turpe nescire.

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Zeno modern machine?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2021, 07:58:35 am »
At a glance, I agree, I don't see anything suspicious.
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Offline Flav V

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Re: Zeno modern machine?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2021, 11:07:52 am »
Thanks all,

It appear difficult to differentiate it from the marks made by modern machines. The marks left by the tool of an ancient engravor are similar as modern marks. Regularity, spacing... Maybe modern machines left deeper marks? I dont know. Im loking at Dr Prokopov photos and maybe the only difference is that the marks overflow on the top of the letters. unlike old marks which are limited to the outer edges of letters.

Offline Ron C2

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Re: Zeno modern machine?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2021, 06:24:28 pm »
while I'm no expert fake die celator or anything, a friend of mine engraves coin dies and banknote plates for the Royal Canadian Mint.  They use a powered chisel to do fine engraving, which makes the work a lot easier and faster.  They don't need to use hammers and they only have to use manual graving chisels for specific precision tasks.  Most of the work is done with these powered tools that vibrate a high speed steel (i.e. tool steel) cutting bit back and forth, simulating the manual hammering of a tiny chisel to hog off metal.

These machines leave a uniformly spaced chisel appearance under magnification and top engravers then take a finishing cut with a manual graver to smooth out the bottom of lettering, for example.

Here's a couple pictures of the graving tools I'm talking about from the 'net, noting they are specialty items costing many hundreds of dollars:







Professional engravers of coin dies would not be using any type of rotary engraver like you might see at a trophy plaque engraving shop.  They would use these small power chisels.

I suspect this is what Dr. Propokov was referring to, though I would not be expert enough to easily spot the difference between the spacing and uniformity of a machine chisel vs. a manual one that was hammered by an experienced ancient celator.
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Offline Din X

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Re: Zeno modern machine?
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2021, 06:59:28 am »
I have modern hand cut dies from Slavey (I have pictures of the tools he used and step by step pictures how he cuts the dies).
And I have only dies not knowing abut the used tools of Tumbalev, Remoneda, Sicilian workshop and Lipanoff silicon rubbers and the fitting matrixes (they often used impressions of real coins and then recut and changed details in plastic and later made plastic electric conductive with graphite and then producing matrixes with electroplating).
I could not find on any of these modern hand cut dies these marks :(
The dies look strange because I use much machine oil that they will not corrode.
It is well possible that some forgers used modern machines to cut such dies but the ones I have matrixes from do at least have not such marks from modern machines.
Steel is soft, Slavey did not use a hammer for cutting, I assume that the steel dies will be hardened later after engraving is finished like in ancient times.

Offline Hydatius

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Re: Zeno modern machine?
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2021, 08:31:09 am »
Everyone is focusing on method and not style. I've seen a lot of free-hand dies and they never look like the real thing. All of these look fine stylistically.
Richard
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Zeno modern machine?
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2021, 01:23:29 pm »
Yes, they do.
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Offline Flav V

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Re: Zeno modern machine?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2021, 02:55:39 pm »
Really interesting addings.

im looking at this coin where CONOB dont appear. Strange, maybe fake but i wont pronounce. Anyway we can see little holes on the obverse from 10 et 12 o'clock. Followed by stripes. Can it be the result of a machine?

Offline Din X

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Re: Zeno modern machine?
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2021, 05:44:18 am »
I have never heard that forgers are using machines for engraving.
What I can say is that Slavey and Tumbalev are using normal engraving tools like shown on the money trend 7-8/2010 mentioned in the other here mentioned thread.
I have step by step pictures how Slavey engraved my die with tools and pictures (I have shared already some in another thread) and pictures of the tools used by Tumbalev.
I will post the tools of Tumablev which are the same as Slavey is using and one die cut by these tools.

Gateway error 504 again

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