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Author Topic: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius  (Read 8927 times)

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Offline Byzantofil

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Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« on: October 12, 2017, 04:09:23 pm »
I want to show you a strange, perhaps unique example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius. Instead of the cross and palm branches on the reverse of this ceremonial milairence, a mysterious monogram was carved. This type is not mentioned anywhere, nor even in the MIBЕС.
The coin is quite large, 21 mm. in diameter and weighs 4 grams. By the type – it’s  the typical light miliarens. But in the MIBЕС, only ceremonial and common light siliquae are marked. A coin is not a fake or a fantasy. Perhaps it belonged to a very limited emission in honor of some event, or an important person, for example, a consul.
Perhaps the name in the monogram is read as Pachomius, but I'm not sure.
What you think?

obverse

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2017, 04:10:25 pm »

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2017, 04:11:30 pm »
zoom:

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2017, 04:12:23 pm »

Offline vercingetorix

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2017, 12:46:47 pm »
Can you take some pictures showing the coin's edge? We need to establish its authenticity before anything else.
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Offline *Alex

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2017, 02:16:43 pm »
If you can make a case for the monogram being Paulus, could it be some sort of commemorative piece? Paulus was Maurice Tiberius' father, he died in 593. This is all wild conjecture on my part, I just thought I would drop it in. ;D I know little to nothing of the coinage of this period. 

Alex

Offline vercingetorix

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2017, 07:26:05 pm »
There are no monograms on sixth-century silver coinage and silver coins in this century were mostly ceremonial (imperial largesse) - even the so-called regular issues. In the case of Maurice those special occassions could have been his consulship (584 and 602) and his quinquennial celebrations (587, 592, 597 and 602). Using a monogram would be highly irregular in this case and using a monogram that has nothing to do with the emperor himself (or his son, Theodosius, the presumed successor) makes this coin very suspicious.
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Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2017, 10:38:29 pm »
I think something modern.
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Offline Obryzum

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2017, 11:14:43 pm »
The obverse looks ancient to me (though perhaps cast), but the reverse seems crude and modern.  It is strange enough to have a monogram on sixth century silver, and stranger still that the monogram would be the only feature on the reverse.  In addition, if you look closely where the diagonal bars meet the parallel bars in the monogram, the connection is uneven and has not been smoothed out.  In most coins with monograms, execution would be smooth and seamless.   

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2017, 12:50:24 pm »
Thank you for your attention. Two edges (the upper and the lower are rounded, with traces of metal ruptures, the right edge (for the obverse) is the cutting edge, the right edge is cut by two strokes, if desired, on the left side you can see the layers as when welding a galvanic copy of three parts, but On the other hand, the upper and lower edges are typical for the original workpieces, and there are remnants of chased luster on the obverse as well as microscopic furrows (at the edge of the letters and the monogram bar) left by the stamp when it is slightly displaced during minting.
The coin was found in the Caucasus at a depth of 40 cm.

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2017, 01:19:31 pm »
A few more microphotos, including the most suspicious area with "layers" (in place of the cruel cutting of the coin blank).
I myself have seen quite a lot of fakes, but in this case, I'm not convinced that this is something modern. By the way, one of the options for reading the monogram: Pammahos (all-conquering).

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2017, 11:21:22 am »
Cast and modern.
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Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2017, 02:36:53 pm »
I thank you for your opinion. I only ask you to indicate the signs of casting. Why do you think so?

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2017, 08:25:10 am »
May it can be a fake (but I don't think so), but truly no cast. There is mint luster and the sign of metal flow still exist, goldish patina on Maurice's nose zone, there's no casting pearls, in cutting area coin has «deep edge» zone, as on this coin (https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?album=14&pos=36).
All edges in coin surface is sharp, it's non also high pressure cast indeed.   ???

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2017, 06:51:18 pm »
Send it to NGC or David Sear.  I would be stunned to learn it is anything other than modern.  I am confident enough that I would not pay $1 for this great rarity

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Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2017, 10:01:45 am »
The coin is not for sale. Your dollar is saved :)
Given the modern methods of almost industrial search for coins in the ground, I am sure that sooner or later there will be another such copy, and from a source that inspires you more trust than this one.
Thank you for your patience with me and with the subject!

Offline vercingetorix

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2017, 03:42:48 pm »
It's clearly a cast fake, based on the shape of the edge. How old this fake is, that's harder to tell. That reverse design doesn't exist anyway, but that is a secondary concern now.
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Offline peterpil19

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2017, 09:45:24 pm »
Hi Byzantofil,

1. Your coin has been unequivocally condemned by an expert (Joe) who typically states where he is unable to condemn or authenticate a coin from a photo.

2. The coin displays signs of casting from the photos you have shared.

3. As it has been condemned, the coin will likely be uploaded to the FORVM's fake reports thereby warding off any potential purchasers in the future,

If you still hold doubts, you should send it off for authentication. Given its great rarity (unique) and numismatic value if it were authentic, I cannot see why you would not choose to do so if you hold onto the belief that it is authentic.

Peter

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2017, 10:13:50 am »
Respected Peter!

I understand the general opinion completely, and I do not see any need to argue, regardless of whether I agree or not.
Authentication is a good idea, but all the mentioned authentication centers are far from me, both GB or the United States, but I doh't want to trust this coin to the postal services (recently the postal service had lost a letter with one of my coins).
Since I do not plan the sale of this coin, I do not hurry to authenticate this coin yet, although I would like to achieve the truth.
I think that only a find of a similar specimen subjected to expert evaluation will put an end to this dispute.
There are so many fakes in the numismatic market now, and any unusual coin is completely perceived with suspicion and distrust.
Once again I thank you for your opinions.

Offline NIKSOL

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2019, 03:19:29 pm »

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2019, 10:07:07 am »
Dear NikosP2!
Thank you for your attention to this rare silver issue. I think that the monogram on your seal should be turned on 180 degrees, which I did, see the new photo below:
Of course, the monograms are different, on yours clearly read the letters P, A, maybe  :Greek_Lambda: and OY. Here is the standard form of the name in the genitive case. Maybe, ПАV  :Greek_Lambda: OY
In my case, in the monogram there is no genitive with a characteristic ending OY. The letters П, A, M, X, Y, and possibly C are read.
In the opinion of the respected Wolfgang Hahn, the monogram can be interpreted as Παμμάχος, meaning “fighting with all means". Which is well suited Maurice, forced to constantly fight.
Thank you for your attention again, at least you wrote something essentially, but not simple “this is fake”.

Yes, by the way, on the back of your seal it says "The Servant of the Theotokou (Mother of God)".

Offline NIKSOL

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2019, 05:32:24 pm »
Dear NikosP2!
Thank you for your attention to this rare silver issue. I think that the monogram on your seal should be turned on 180 degrees, which I did, see the new photo below:
Of course, the monograms are different, on yours clearly read the letters P, A, maybe  :Greek_Lambda: and OY. Here is the standard form of the name in the genitive case. Maybe, ПАV  :Greek_Lambda: OY
In my case, in the monogram there is no genitive with a characteristic ending OY. The letters П, A, M, X, Y, and possibly C are read.
In the opinion of the respected Wolfgang Hahn, the monogram can be interpreted as Παμμάχος, meaning “fighting with all means". Which is well suited Maurice, forced to constantly fight.
Thank you for your attention again, at least you wrote something essentially, but not simple “this is fake”.

Yes, by the way, on the back of your seal it says "The Servant of the Theotokou (Mother of God)".



thank you my friend for the information!!! +++
   :Greek_Eta:  :Greek_Mu: :Greek_Alpha: :Greek_Kappa: :Greek_epsilon: :Greek_Delta: :Greek_Omicron: :Greek_Nu: :Greek_Iota: :Greek_Alpha:  :Greek_epsilon: :Greek_Iota: :Greek_Nu: :Greek_Alpha: :Greek_Iota:  :Greek_epsilon: :Greek_Lambda: :Greek_Lambda: :Greek_Eta: :Greek_Nu: :Greek_Iota: :Greek_Kappa: :Greek_Eta:

Offline Byzantofil

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2019, 05:44:45 am »
A lead seal with a similar monogram's core (П and Х) caught my eye. And apparently, this is not a name, but some official position or title:

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Mysterious example of the silver coinage of Maurice Tiberius
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2019, 08:59:33 am »
Yes, Greek letter monograms are real. That fact was already known to me. So seeing them will not change my opinion. I remain extremely confident that it is modern. 
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