Uncleaned Coins Vs Purchased Clean Coins

[Mayadigger]

Ave!

Collecting ancient coins is a delightful hobby, isn't it?

But here's the difference between simply purchasing a coin on eBay, here on Forum, or anywhere else for that matter, at least as I see it, and cleaning a coin for your collection.

Any collector can easily and simply purchase an already cleaned coin. We look at it...then add it to our book. Yes, it may fill in a blank in your collection, and you may be happy for a few days, weeks or even months...with your new acquisition. This is a very cold, but certainly a direct way, to increase your collection.

My collecting interest is rather boring, but not to me: Licinius II only. Yes, I have to admit that I have purchased a number of scarcer types off eBay, but none of them warms my heart more than the coins that I have personnally cleaned and added to my book. Each of these coins were a labor of love for me...and I have a greater appreciation for them, just because I took them from "uncleaned" to "cleaned".

Seen below are a few examples of what I'm talking about:



OBV/ LICINIVS IVN NO(B) C; Rad., dr. and cuir. bust l.
REV/ BEATA TRANQUILLITAS; ornate globe resting on an altar inscribed VOT/IS/XX; three stars above.
PTR in exergue
RIC VII, 311 (Rare 4)
According to the authors of RIC, they recorded only one known example of this left bust example. Add the missing "B" on the OBV and we now have a very rare, perhaps unique coin. :-)

Or this unique Licinius II issue?



Obverse/ LICINIUS IVN NOB C; laureate, draped and cuirassed bust of Licinius Junior right.
Reverse/ VOT / XV FEL / XX RT in three lines within laurel wreath.
References/ RIC VII, p. 319 variant -- this officina not recorded; Cohen 77 varient.

Unfortunately this particular coin is no longer in my possesion; it came to me in a consignment lot of uncleaned coins from a friend in Europe. Once identified, the dealer wanted it back, much to my dismay. :-( Sometimes it really hurts being honest, doesn't it? I sent pix of the coin to David Sear and this is what he had to say: "Very rare and interesting, a previously unrecorded officina for this type (RIC notes only the first officina, 'P')" Hense, a unique example. SWEET!


Licinius II AE 3
3gm & 21mm

Obv/ LICINIVS IVN NOB CAES; laur., dr., and cuir. r.; holding mappa in r. hand, globe and sceptre in r. hand.
Rev/ IOVI CONSERVATORI CAESS; Jupiter stg. l., chalmys across l., shoulder, holding globe and sceptre; crescent/A in fields.

SMAL in exergue. RIC VII, 25. Rare 2 chEF?

I certainly have a greater appreciation for those coins that I have personally cleaned over those that I simply bought.

Your thoughts on this subject?

Best,

Kevin

[whitetd49]

Hey MD, If you recall, I started out with uncleanded coins.  It was a lot of fun and a lot of time.  I still have and value many of the better examples.  The knock on the whole process is that you accumulate an incredible array of coins scattered throughout space and time many of which are not really collectable (low grade, not fully attributeable).  After a couple years of this, one takes stock of the investment one has made and realize that there is a minimal gain.  To make it short, if you want a focussed collection, then you must focus on individual coins, not huge lots.  Of course, your situation is quite different.  You have the best of both worlds - a focus (L2) and a much higher volume of uncleans passing through than most of us can match.  I think it was quite wise of you to open your coin shop!

For interest, one of my cleaned coins:

[awl]

I clean uncleaneds for the fun of it and to build up my collection. I also like to learn about all of the emperors that I find and read the history about them after I clean them.

[Andrew Courtney]

I will do both.  If I see something I like already cleaned, why not buy it?  But, to me, part of the enjoyment of cleaning is the hunt.  I like to be the first person in over 1000 years to see the details on my coins.  The variety of coins I find also forces me to learn more about areas I may not have ever considered if I simply bought coins that are already cleaned and identified.

Andrew

[Mark Farrell]

MD,

Interesting topic. I started collecting late roman bronzes because I could buy them as uncleaned coins. I moved onto provinicials and in the past year to a focus on Roman Syria. Unfortunately, getting uncleaned coins from that region isn't either fruitful (they completely suck) or they just don't hit the market. I wish they did, because I'd love to clean some. In the meantime, I buy cleaned coins because that's the only to get them from that area.

But I still clean coins, not as much to add to my collection, but simply because I love to clean them. It is something of a treasure hunt, I guess. you just never know what you are going to get. It's interesting, though... I am loathe to sell any coins I clean, even if they aren't in my collecting focus. Probably because they are mine! I've claimed them and made them mine not just because I bought them, but because I cleaned them. Sort of like a personal statement.

Mark

[Robert_Brenchley]

I haven't bought a large lot of uncleaned for several years, but I regularly buy single uncleaned, or occasionally small lots, when I want the specific coins. For instance, I'm currently working on a billon Postumus which is coming up very nicely.

[Circus_Maximus]

9 out of every 10 coins I buy is uncleaned or reported as. I like the mystery, learning the Caesars, and the unusual find. I've been buying for about 7 years and had many ups and downs as far as selection goes but recently I found a place where I can get some nice large uncleaneds and those are really cool when they become attributable. I think the stuff I am getting now is the bst I've seen and I'm getting Trajan, Hadrian, etc. and sometimes I'm finding several duplicates in the same lot. I have been buying as much as I could spend but the till is running low...just bought another 50+...maybe I'll have to sell some and buy more???

soon I will post some pics in a gallery.

after that I prefer to buy from people who don't know or are mistaken as to what they have. unknown coin, found coin, detector find, and other searches like it turn up some interesting things occasionally. I still buy on eBay but that is a big giant free for all where you can get gypped all kinds of ways and that's why I prefer to stay away from cleaned and attributed there.

[Scotvs Capitis]

I buy uncleaned coins for the fun of it, I just enjoy cleaning. I buy individual coins for the collection, and add uncleaned successes where they help fill out the collection.

If I ever wanted to collect Fel Temp die varieties from Siscia, I am set 

Really the quality of coins depends on how familiar a buyer you are. You can sniff out the garbage pretty well after a while, and you can generally tell what lots will be worth the effort. It takes some buying to learn. After a while you can see trends in the supply and you can tell when an individual dealer's current lot runs dry and he's selling from a new supply.

I've been buying from a handful of uncleaned suppliers lately, all are pretty good. My problem is I don't need any more late Roman bronze AE3 and AE4s, and I don't want to randomly buy larger issues for $6 and 7 bucks a coin random pick, because even those coins are going to be common. I'd rather buy individual coins unless I can get crusties or buy uncleans from a supplier who has a large potpourri of coins mixed all together in a variety so that my purchase will be like the carnival grab bag. I don't even mind a few modern coins in the mix, its fun to discover whats there. Some uncleaned lots offered by dealers who generally deal in individual coins often are the ones they acquired indirectly with collection purchases or didn't have the time to clean, those are often really good finds.

[Barabus]

 I have purchased two lots of large uncleaned romans.The first lot produced two coins from Moesia that were in fair condition.The second order was from same seller and produced culls.The coins are usually worn thin or they have so much material buildup on them that when trying to clean they reveal that the image is completely destroyed.I would like to find a dealer who sells coins that have a good chance of producing coins that reveals better conditions than what I have been getting.I like large uncleaned coins due to old age eye sight and shaking hands.I have been paying $40.00 plus $4.00 shipping for 10 coins.I would pay more per coin if the coins produced better results.Even buying individual coins.
  What do I need to get better coins?

[Scotvs Capitis]

In my latest batch of coins I got an arcadius AE with a facing portrait, thats a first for me.

[Circus_Maximus]

I like the  Arcadius portrait on the facing, it's much different than the artwork done in preceding 150 years> I'm working on one and while its not likely to be $$ - it is still a favorite.

[SC]

Previous postings have mostly said it all.

Like "Scipio" I am interested in getting as many different Emperors as possible someday.  That means I will simply have to buy some cleaned at some point (in fact I already have bought several to get specific Emperors).  I am also likely to go for some other specializations someday and that too will require buying individual cleaned coins.

On the other hand, I get most pleasure out of attributing and the learning process associated with that.  Cleaning is a close second, though to tell the truth, in many ways I would be happy with cleaned but unattributed

Anyway, I have found great pleasure in finding some rarer stuff in my uncleaned lots -  Magnentius, Decentius, Magnus Maximus, Severina, etc.  Now the truth is these are not super rare.  I could have bought one of any of these for $10-20 at any time.  But somehow I dont think I would be half, or a quarter, as attached to the coins if I had just bought them already cleaned and attributed.  It is the thrill of finding them, and as Awl said learning about the history, that mattered.

Shawn

[saholz]

I buy uncleaned coins for the "treasure hunt" aspect.  I guess it's really like gambling ... you keep hoping for that big win.  I don't buy as many as I used to ... now I'm more likely to buy single examples of a nice denarius or larger bronze issue than uncleaned lots.  It's really very rare to get a decent silver or larger coin out of most uncleaned lots, so buying them individually is the only way to get what I want.

I still buy uncleaned lots however, I'm sad to say, that the quality of the coins I'm getting seems to be getting worse and worse.  Buying from better sellers, I used to get as much as a 60+% success rate, and often wind up with some really exceptional pieces.  Now, I'm lucky if I can find anything that cleans up to even decent conditon.  I rarely find anything anymore that I want to add to my collection.  I'll always buy some uncelaned lots, just for the fun of it, but my expectations are very, very low at this point.

Stan

[Vladimir]

Kevin i  envy you deeply for  collecting  in such a narrow area.  Sky is a limit for what you can do there.

[Mayadigger]

Ave!

Buying uncleaned coins to further any certain collecting interest is, as mentioned many times above, is a very chancy way to build your collection. My only thought was whether you appreciate the uncleaned coins in your book more than those simply purchased from the internet/dealers/ect. I know I certainly do.

Collecting via uncleaneds is also a neat way to begin to hone down your collecting interest, as well. That's how I began my Licinius Jr's, anyway. One day I noticed that I had quite a few of them and thought, hummm, perhaps this is a good direction to go. The same can apply to anyone. Perhaps you have a number of Constans Fel Temp Ae 2's from a certain mint. That would be a great way to begin, looking for more to complete a certain series.

Sure, we'd all like to have a complete set of Galba denarius to brag about, but that sort of thing really doesn't matter.

What does matter, is what you like. I know one member here on Forum who only collects LRBC "vow's" issues. I see him sometimes at the Long Beach Coin Show, always with his crumpled and struck-through RIC print out of all the listed vows issues in hand, studiously searching through piles of cleaned coins. His collection is enormous, but certainly not complete. That's the sort of "life-time" dedication that I'm jealous of. And, because, "vows" issues are common, they are also very inexpensive.

Anyway, all for now,

Kevin

[vic9128]

And, because, "vows" issues are common, they are also very inexpensive.

Some are common and inexpensive, others are not. Here are some not so common Constantinian votive coins:

HAEC VOTA MVLT NN, MVLT NATAL FEL, PLVRA/NATAL/FEL, VICTORIAE AETERNA AVGG N , VOT X AVG N , VOT X/ET XV F, VOT X MVL XX, VOT/XV/FEL/XX

unless you know of someplace I can get these types cheaply!

[gavignano]

It can go either way. I like collecting cleaned coins, both by emperor and specialty. But an "uncleaned fix" is fun. Some of them have made it into my collection. Certainly I've got a few dozen off center bad flan Fel Temps hanging around the desk drawer.
A friend of mine did hit a "rare" one. A Lalieaneus - fairly badly corroded, but very clear legend. Nice find!! Eye appeal wise, its not much nicer than a Tet I with a decapitated Victory reverse on a cough drop style flan, but its his favorite bronze. Would be mine to if I found it uncleaned!!!

[Jeff Clark]

And Kevin, don't forget those little Festival of Isis VOTA PVBLICA medallions that have increased exponentially in cost in the last couple of years.  All of them are known from a handful or less examples and many are still unique.
Also, don't quite limit me to LRBC Votas.  I start with the first one of Augustus and most rulers had one all the way to Justin II.  I even have a nice FAKE Romulus Augustus gold semisis that may be close to unique itself!
Anyway, at this point it becomes pointless for me to buy uncleaned coins.  Sure, I may find one that I need in a group of 1000.  But, I have to go through 1000 cleaned coins to find one I need too.  And, I need to have mintmarks visible in order to completely ID my coins.  So, while I am not picky about grade, I required complete ID.  Even nice uncleaned coins often are missing vital parts.  Of course, I am probably more likely to find a 1 in a million coin in uncleaned coins if I keep looking....but that is only because there are a goodly number of 1 in a million coin types out there.  Eventually, you will find something good. 
But, truth be told, I couldn't clean a coin correctly if my life depended on it either!!

[Mayadigger]

Ave!

Speak of the Devil and up he jumps... 

And Kevin, don't forget those little Festival of Isis VOTA PVBLICA medallions that have increased exponentially in cost in the last couple of years. All of them are known from a handful or less examples and many are still unique.
Also, don't quite limit me to LRBC Votas. I start with the first one of Augustus and most rulers had one all the way to Justin II. I even have a nice FAKE Romulus Augustus gold semisis that may be close to unique itself!
Anyway, at this point it becomes pointless for me to buy uncleaned coins. Sure, I may find one that I need in a group of 1000. But, I have to go through 1000 cleaned coins to find one I need too. And, I need to have mintmarks visible in order to completely ID my coins. So, while I am not picky about grade, I required complete ID. Even nice uncleaned coins often are missing vital parts. Of course, I am probably more likely to find a 1 in a million coin in uncleaned coins if I keep looking....but that is only because there are a goodly number of 1 in a million coin types out there. Eventually, you will find something good.
But, truth be told, I couldn't clean a coin correctly if my life depended on it either!!

Hi Jeff, I guess I was too close to the mark, eh?  I'm happy that you have added your collecting thoughts. Who knew? LOL! Remember, I never stated that you were looking through uncleaned coins. BTW, how's your father doing with his Byzantine coins?

Best,

Kevin

[Jeff Clark]

Dad has given up his coin business, his books and all coins except those early Byzantines with profile busts and crosses above them(and some rare late Roman with the same attributes).  I have the books and most of the coins that he had left otherwise and will eventually deal with them, especially if I can get my basement finished to put them in.

[Mayadigger]

Ave!

Jeff, sorry to hear that, my friend. I missed him in last the last LBCS. I always got a kick watching him peruse the Byzantines. How is his health?

K

[Jeff Clark]

K,
He is doing remarkably well for an 80 year old gentleman who never expected to make it past 60!  He is slowing down a bit though.

[Marius]

Jeff, I bid in one of your Dad's auctions once and there was a problem with one coin - and your father went way out of his way to make everything right. When I saw your post here I immediatley remembered the good feeling of being treated well by him.
Richard

[Jeff Clark]

Richard,
It is always nice to hear from someone who got a positive experience from Dad.  I suppose most people did.  He always felt that if he made a mistake on a coin that it was his responsibility to make it right.  I never thought about it until I read this post, but when you order something you usually are doing it for a reason.  If the coin isn't what you wanted, there is a major letdown as well as not getting the desired coin.  I can see where it would be much easier if the dealer who sold it at least takes responsibility for it and provides as much assistance as they can in the matter.  I think many dealers will try to make it right.  Conversely, Dad didn't like it much when someone just didn't like a coin when they got it and sent it back for no particular reason!