Another piece of the Stobi puzzle

[whitetd49]

Unfortunately, this one got away.  The obverse is V46 - Josifovski lists a single specimen matched with a typical Nike advancing left (R47), MVNI STOB.  This coin's reverse die is unlisted and, more remarkably, an undescribed variant.  The normal reverse is Nike, sometimes stepping on a globe, inscribing a shield  with MVNICIP STOBENSI in five lines - I will post an example below.  In this new variant, there is no indication of an inscription and Nike's hand is held open (presentation?) above the shield.  The light beard of Caracalla on the obverse indicates that these coins were produced towards the middle of his sole reign.

[whitetd49]

This is the more familiar reverse type:

[curtislclay]

The second coin shows the standard type, I think: Victory is steadying the shield on her knee with her left hand (sometimes the fingers of her l. hand are shown gripping the top of the shield), and she writes a victory inscription on the shield with her r. hand.

I suspect that the first type above is not an intentional and deliberate variant, but just a botched version of the standard type by a confused engraver!

[whitetd49]

I had not really considerd that possibility.  Here is a wreck of a Julia Domna that may actually be the same reverse die.  It also features Nike reaching to the top of the shield, too bad it is in such poor condition.

[Arminius]

And a nice one for the puzzle:

Stobi in Macedonia, Julia Domna,
Æ22 (21-22 mm / 5.42 g), 193-217 AD.,
Obv.: IVLIA - AVGVST , draped bust of Julia Domna right.
Rev.: MVNI - STOBEN , Nike advancing right with wreath and palm.
Josif. ?

Regards, A.

[Arminius]

And now we see "the first" building of the town:

Stobi in Macedonia, Trajan, 98-117 AD.,
Æ22 (21-22 mm / 9.37 g), Obv.: [IMP CAES NER]VA TRAIAN AVG GER[M P M T P COS III ] , laureate head of Trajan r.
Rev.: MVNI-CIPI S-TO-B[ENS]IVM , tetrastyle temple with statue of Zeus, eagle at his feet left, a clipeus (round shield) in the pediment of the temple.
BMC 3 ; SNG Cop. - ; Moushmov 6533 .

Rgds.

[whitetd49]

Yes, a piece I had never seen before.  This obverse die is immediately recognizable as it is the only one that does not completely spell out AVGVSTA.  In addition, Josifovski does not note the pellet from his two rather poor specimens.  This is Josifovski 215 and 216 (V66, R70), citing specimens in a private collection.  Neither die is known to occur with others.

[whitetd49]

Josifovski lists 21 examples of this type for Trajan, all different dies.  Many of these are in poor condition with incomplete legends.  As a result, I cannot confirm any matches.  Josifovski describes a patera umbilicus on the fronton of the temple.  Additional citations for the type are:
Cohen II 674
AMNG Gaebler 6
BMCG 2-4

[Arminius]

... and the last new one for tonight, a (standard type) Caracalla:

Stobi in Macedonia, Caracalla, 209-217 AD.,
Æ22 (22-23 mm / 5.97 g),
Obv.: M AVREL - ANTONI , laureate head of Caracalla right.
Rev.: MVNIC - STOBE, Victory advancing right with wreath and palm.

good night !

[whitetd49]

Werner, this last one is Josif, 402 (V67, R111).  This was a large emission.  The obverse die is linked to at least 9 reverses, 7 of which are Nike advancing right.  In turn, these reverse are linked to 3 more obverse dies.  Lastly, the obverse legend may actually read M AVRIL ANTONI.  I have two examples of this obverse in my gallery (search "stobe V67").  Here is one of them:

[Tiathena]

     
   This will likely sound quite the simpleton’s question, but …
 
  Looking at Arminius’ very pretty J. Domna, I’m struck by the manner of writing the obv. legend.
  I can’t recall ever seeing it done in such manner before (for any Empress) and, now having made such search as within my scope & means seem able to find such like examples only for Domna and only at Stobi, only on bronze – with several subtle variants (e.g. AVGVSTA IVLIA … did I also see an AVG IVLIA..? ..may have been wear to legend).
 
  If it is 'proper' so to speak, to read left to right, including coin legends – why would one not both read & write this one out as: AVGVST IVLIA ..?
 
  If we do so in fact, is there any particular significance to this particular ordering here?  It seems rather a rare exception. (?)

   It’s possible I’ve seen such before & just never took notice.
  Or maybe this is an ordering peculiar to certain Stobi Æ dies? (only for Domna as it seems to me at present?  As neither have I been able to find any such on silver, or on aurei).
 
   Well – I’m just wondering here, if anyone might be so kind as to clarify?
   Any thoughts at all about this seeming peculiarity?
 
      Best,
      Tia
 

[whitetd49]

Tia, you are quite correct.  It is a peculiararity of Stobi.  On both obverse and reverse legends, they appear to randomly begin at either 7 o'clock (normal) or 1 o'clock.  Thus, you will see MVNIC STOBEN about as often as STOBEN MVNIC.  Except for the JD die above and one other, legends for her are invariably IVLIA AVGVSTA.  So where the legend begins or where a legend break occurs is not terribly significant except of course in helping to distinguish between dies.  These odd legends are found on the diassaria of JD and Caracalla - in all other issues, the legends are more typical and invariant.  In my gallery, I take the convention of reading the legends from 7 o'clock to help distinguish between dies but this produces more peculiarities, GVSTA IVLIA  AV/!

[Tiathena]

 
   Ah-ha!  I see… Thank you very much for that Tom.
  So if I follow you here in toto, you regard this peculiarity as ‘just’ a type ‘legend break?’
  I am supposing too thus, from what you have said and from my own reflection, that ‘we’ do not (cannot?) know the why for these peculiar legends on the noted Domna & Caracalla dies?
  Engraver’s error? ..Whim? ..purposeful for distinction of the die (setting it apart from some other)?
 
  Yeah, gosh…  GVSTA IVLIA   AV – that is quite a twist!
  I much thank you for the insight into how the numismatist reads it, and the sensible why so.
 
   Best, as always –
   Tia
 

[whitetd49]

There realy is no apparent reason for these variable legends, perhaps there was some aesthetic of spacing the letters.  Even the first coin posted shows this - Caracalla's title is ANTONINVS PIVS AVG but begins PIVS...

[Tiathena]

 
    Very, very interesting…
  Thanks again!

  Yes, I’d not even noticed it on the first Caracalla.
 
   Best,
   Tia
 

[curtislclay]

The order of those two obv. legends is not reversed, rather their starting point is 1 o'clock rather than the normal 7 o'clock.

[Tiathena]

 
   Oh!  Yes, of course – I see the point now & at-last it sinks in completely why Tom has said 'legend break.'
  Thank you Curtis.   The virtue of simplicity!
 
  Eventually, I believe I will start to think like a numismatist – or at least more readily understand the nature of that thinking…
 
   Most gratefully,
   Tia
 

[Arminius]

Another one for the Stobi-puzzle:

Stobi in Macedonia, Caracalla, 198-217 AD.,
Diassarion / Æ23 (23-24 mm / 6.77 g),
Obv.: AG M AVR - ANTONINVS , radiate bust of Caracalla right.
Rev.: MVNICI - STOBEN , Serapis standing left, wearing polos (looking like a wicker basket), raising right hand and holding a snake in left.
cf. AMNG III, 113, 13 (rev. pl. XXI.31).

Maybe a new obverse die (if the AMNG obverse legend is correct - but i don´t  know the Josifovski specimens).

Tom (whitetd49) about his Julia Domna specimen 'JulDomStobi2.JPG': "The reverse type (same die) is known from one specimen of Caracalla, AMNG 13 pl. XXI.31. Two more examples of a Caracalla specimen (same dies), Josifovski 292 - 293, are in the National Bank of the Republic of Macedonia."

Regards

[whitetd49]

Oh very nice!  I do not recall the Caracalla obverse to be radiate.  Radiate busts are rare, it is very likely a new die pair and obverse die.  I will return in about two weeks and will check my references then.

[epmunt]

This is Caracalla or Geta?

[arizonarobin]

Here is my newest Julia Domna from Stobi.  I had a question about it, and being that all the experts are here 

On the reverse the figure of Nike is advancing left with a trophy- no wreath, I have not seen this before?
Also is it unusual to have the STOBE on the Left?

[whitetd49]

This is Caracalla or Geta?

It must be Geta as Caesar, the portrait is just too young for Caracalla.

[whitetd49]

Here is my newest Julia Domna from Stobi.  I had a question about it, and being that all the experts are here 

On the reverse the figure of Nike is advancing left with a trophy- no wreath, I have not seen this before?
Also is it unusual to have the STOBE on the Left?

Nike with trophy is one of the rarer reverses from Stobi.  I have a single specimen with Nike advancing to the right, advancing left may be a bit more unusual.  I can check the references in about 2 weeks.  Regarding the legend - every possible permutation of the reverse legend seems to be the rule.  On both reverses and obverses, legends are commonly seen to start at the 1 o'clock position.

[Arminius]

Hello arizonarobin,

see you also got the Stobi virus. I have a Caracalla with that 'Nike advancing left with Trophy' reverse - but from different dies:

Stobi in Macedonia, Caracalla,
Æ24 (22-24 mm / 5.68 g), 198-217 AD.,
Obv.: M - ANTONINV - PIVS AVG , laureate bust of Caracalla right (light beard).
Rev.: MVNIG - STOB , Nike standing left, holding trophy.
Moushmov 6554 .

Tom´s comment: Very rare, BMCG 17, Josif 470 (V117, R159) citing a specimen in a private collection but in poor condition. This may be a different obverse die.

Yours and mine are the only reverses like this i saw so far. Let us compile and share more Stobi data to complete the puzzle.

Regards.

[Arminius]

Another one from the big Caracalla issue:

Stobi in Macedonia, Caracalla, 198-217 AD.,
2 Assaria / Æ23 (22-24 mm / 6.51 g),
Obv.: M AVRE - ANTONIN , laureate bust of Caracalla right (light beard).
Rev.: MVNIC - STOB , Nike advancing right with wreath and palm.
unlisted dies, die matches with whitetd49´ "CaraStobe71.JPG", rev. also same as whitetd49´ Julia Domna coin "JulDomStobi31.JPG" .

Regards