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Author Topic: Unlisted Victorinus?  (Read 408 times)

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Offline Flav V

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Unlisted Victorinus?
« on: June 06, 2022, 02:04:29 am »
Hello,

This coin seems unlisted, not in RIC V B and i dont find similar coin in internet.

O/ IMP C VICTORINVS P F AVG

R/ SAEC F - ELICITAS


Online Pekka K

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Re: Unlisted Victorinus?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2022, 02:26:21 am »
Looks like Cunetio 2972, listed as imitation with reverse of Marius.

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Offline Flav V

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Re: Unlisted Victorinus?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2022, 02:49:44 am »
The weight is that of an official coin (around 2.50 grs) and the style is good... Therefore i think its a new line to add on official coins. Do you have a picture of Cunetio 2072?

Online Pekka K

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Re: Unlisted Victorinus?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2022, 03:23:52 am »

Here you have, with another imitation struck with same obverse die.

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Offline Flav V

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Re: Unlisted Victorinus?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2022, 03:44:39 am »
What element permit to classify those coins as imitative? Weight? Mine has good weight. It look official and the coins of Cunetio have good style too. You have the weight?

Offline mauseus

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Re: Unlisted Victorinus?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2022, 04:03:15 am »
Hi,
The style of the Marius die is, with the neat small lettering, of official manufacture. The Victorinus die is also of official style. I would suggest that this coin is, indeed, official and can be added to the two cited by Jerome Mairat in his 2014 PhD from the Blackmoor and Normanby hoards. I don't have my two oopies of those hoards to hand to provide better plate illustrations, I have to present the scan of Jerome's plates.

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline Flav V

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Re: Unlisted Victorinus?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2022, 04:38:41 am »
Thanks,

My coin looks draped and cuirassed. The coin has no mark in field instead of the one you illustrate.

Do you consider it is an hybrid or official issue using die of Marius?

Offline mauseus

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Re: Unlisted Victorinus?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2022, 04:47:07 am »
Hi,
 602/1 and 602/2 have no field marks. The coin you can see with field marks is just poor cropping by me.

The were all sorts of hybrids taking place, ORIENS AVG with a field mark of P is known for Victorinus for example. I think it should be classed as a mule from the mint and an official product.

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline Flav V

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Re: Unlisted Victorinus?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2022, 05:20:53 am »
So you think this mule is an error or a voluntary issue? Im not sure to understand.

Offline mauseus

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Re: Unlisted Victorinus?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2022, 05:58:14 am »
Hi.
It is a coin made from official dies, and most likely made at the mint. We will never know whether is was made by accident or deliberately pairing the two dies. As only a few coins of this type are recorded the SAEC coins of Victorinus are unlikely to have been a large issue and so may be more of a novelty sticking or fraudulent product of the mint.

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline Flav V

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Re: Unlisted Victorinus?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2022, 06:44:57 am »
In how many books is it recorded?

Offline Dominic T

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Re: Unlisted Victorinus?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2022, 09:06:22 am »
This is an interesting coin Flav. The mistake often made is to compare the coinage of the Gallic Empire with the one of the Roman Empire. The easy equation is official coins VS barbaric coins (=imitation). It is not that simple. We know very little about how it was working between 260-274 AD there. For now, we believe there were 2 official mints (except Milan) during these times. The location of these workshops have changed many times in the last century, even Mairat admitted: « future evidence may change the picture ». There are evidence of « local mints », maybe tolerated by the authorities or even « sponsored » by them. It’s obvious that the « imitations » were freely circulating during the era of the Gallic rulers. About what we consider « official », we often based our judgment on the style. But what if engravers working in « official «  mints were also working on the side for unofficial ones ? How could we see the difference if the same hands produced both coinage ? An about « official » dies, what happened to them when there was a change of rulers ? Were they reused or even stolen to struck « unofficial » coins ? It has been proven that « official » dies of Victorinus coin ( FORT REDVX reverse) were reused with very crude obverse dies of Tetricus. But where ? In « official » mints or « local » ones ? So many questions but so few answers…
DT

Offline AMICTUS

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Re: Unlisted Victorinus?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2022, 10:33:10 am »
Is the reading of the obverse legend really IMP C VICTORINVS P F AVG ?  Sufficient  space for extra letters  (PI , PIAV  ?)  seems available.

Offline Flav V

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Re: Unlisted Victorinus?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2022, 02:43:28 am »
I totaly agree Dominic T.

Amictus: about the legend we cant know, its out blank. The only way to find the legend is to compare with another coin with the same die. I can read IMP and C then V G, with the size of the letters i think the space let imagine the legend i have noted.

Do you agree with me that the bust is draped and cuirassed?

 

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