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Author Topic: Another coin with provenance  (Read 293 times)

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Offline cicerokid

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Another coin with provenance
« on: February 21, 2022, 02:45:00 pm »

Scanning my small and unimportant coin collection I noticed I had a coin from the A. Scammell collection.
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Offline Ron C2

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Re: Another coin with provenance
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2022, 06:37:09 pm »
pics or it never happened :)
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Offline cicerokid

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Re: Another coin with provenance
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2022, 06:59:15 pm »
Thanks Ron C2, this is a test cos you know that I think if it's not Roman LRB and its not a battle of provenances then most coin collectors are not interested. C'mon Ron you know that most don't give a monkey's about Cappadocian drachms or the great Morkholm-Simonetta scrap or the nicer Lewis- Thompson High date vs low chronology of the NewStyles. If I thought they were interested they could at least google A. Scammel.

[INSULTING COMMENT REMOVED BY ADMIN]

If you read my "Some new coin types in the early Athens New Styles" notice coin 2 bakhos & Kernos...a coin with no dots on the obverse..........the old owners missed this and so did the auctioneers and thus didn't know that it was a completely NEW obverse for this coin, not the one they thought (lazily) it mwas. [INSULTING COMMENT REMOVED BY ADMIN]
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Offline Ron C2

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Re: Another coin with provenance
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2022, 07:10:51 pm »
Nice new style.

I actually did google Scammel, and before you suggested it too.  Seems like an interesting collector, and sad that he left his collection to his sons as a legacy and they seem to be selling it off via various auction houses.  Just goes to show, our offspring likely won't have the same interests we do. 

And you're right - nobody on any forum I have yet visited seems interested in Cappadocian drachms - not that I let that impede my own enjoyment of them :) 

I wish I had some more free time - it would be most interesting to update simonetta's references with the morkholm corrections and publish with new reference numbers for the 2 or 3 numismatists beside me who would notice - lol. Perhaps a retirement project in a few more years from now.

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Online Jay GT4

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Re: Another coin with provenance
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2022, 07:14:42 pm »
A lovely coin regardless of who owned it prior

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Another coin with provenance
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2022, 04:57:39 am »

Hi Ron C2, Never mind the drachms, what about the fantastic tetradrachms of lX. And the tetradrachms in the name and types on Antiochos Vll of the Seleucid Empire. Who were they fighting to need so many coins?
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Offline esnible

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Re: Another coin with provenance
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2022, 08:19:39 am »
There was a bit of traffic on your other thread before it was deleted.  I responded at length.

You are suggesting that "most of Forum" practices "useless ownership".  What is your vision of collecting?

I would like to write and publish more but often have a hard time thinking of new things to say about ancient coins.

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Another coin with provenance
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2022, 02:58:58 pm »
Their is plenty to do in the early late catalogue NewStyles, this is the time when it appears that the Pontic influence in the symbols can be adduced. Some of the coins have NO known obverse or other die links, thus they are orphans. Hoards need looking at., Genuine examples on the Bay need looking at. All are available except the NewStyle in the name of King Mithradates for which the Bronze/Lead is commonly available.What about the sequencing? Where belongs Kernos? Mattingly now, following Boehringer now wants to split up the 2nd & 3rd issue of Xenocles and Harmoxenos.

Once Mr Mattingly wanted a gap in issues during those stressful times He died not too long ago..what was his final position...it could be yours ( or mine but I keep hopping like a cat on a hot tin roof) The famous Sullan siege and beyond.. when did the NewStyles start again..did they ever stop. What of the ethnicless O Demos when and where What of the
ethniced 2 Ear of Grain which is in many ways a dead ringer for O Demos but with magistrates but with a guy with a Roman name Kointos. Was he the same Kointos who was 2nd magistrate on the controversial Roma & Nike issue. Is it really Roma? Yes its die linked to the "Roma" issue . And that is drachm die linked to Apellikon whose symbol the Griffin adorns the coins...btw the Griffin is the badge of Teos. Just where he is supposed to come from. Is he the same Apellikon who used to steal library rolls. And is he the same Appelikon who led a failed attack on the treasury of Delos. Cutting along there is not enough years and issues between the first 10 post Sullan's till the first appearance of the NEO Dionysos c 42 BC in Athens. So I think they are private or organisational  issues. Memories of a better past. Or ...where the NewStyles never strictly yearly issues... the 29 coin type of the 28 first issues means what? What's that, I have often mentioned it hoping that someone would notice it...but nobody ever did. Look what Mattingly did with the post Sullan sequence in L. Julius Caesar: Governor of Macedonia. Look at Thompsons sequencing in NSSCA adjust for 29 years in the great chronology battles ( or not)

Are the Amphora letters actually month indicators and what of the second control. Someone thinks that by selecting this and that it tells how many coins were issued!

It can be all up in the air, if you want it to be. This is not a single issue this is a series spanning hellenistic times to Roman times. Is it a Proxy Roman coinage, what was it for? What of the coins before the NewStyle of Athens. Anyone got one? Know what they look like?
Where does it fit in with the other Stephanophores, the artists of Dionysos., Lebos, Tenedos,Kyme, Myrina, Magnesia and the coinages of the gods the Kyborrai mystery,,.Attalid coinage generally worked out by Westermark.

So much, most Roman coins can be dated to the year and which mint and officina, there must be mysteries in them but not as great as the NewStyles and then add the coins of the gods and others. READ the Great Transformation by Meadows.

Now truly tell me that none of it is interesting . You don't need to afford masterpieces like Mark & Lottie you can always look at catalogues and papers and books. By all means have a LRB for texture ( I've still got 2 DN Valens) one bought in the shadow of the Great Pyramid and a much much better example from e-bay to see what they really looked like..from kyzykios I believe but they photograph badly. But I cann0ot honestly say they stir the pot for me.
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Offline esnible

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Re: Another coin with provenance
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2022, 04:12:08 pm »
Now truly tell me that none of it is interesting .

It's all somewhat interesting, John.

I keep extensive photo files of several series of coins, with the aim of publishing research if the data takes me where I think it will.

I don't have the ability to do die studies on every coin series, especially series I don't specialize in.  I can't really do much to study a single New Style tetradrachm, combining the obverse die for Thompson 961 with reverse die of 958a.  If you recording known die pairs I will be happy to supply you with the weight and axis.

I believe the mainstream theory that the amphora letters are months.  For the example I am talking about the dating is usually given as 98/97 BC.  Thompson 958a's reverse has the month M, "Skirophorion" in the Attic calendar,  which is the last month. So June/July 97 BC? The coins use a lunar calendar, with occasional N for month 13, but there was no N in 97 BC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attic_calendar

According to http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases-0099.html, the moon was new on Jun 13, 97 BC and on Jul 13, 97 BC.

Using the astropixels.com site was my idea; I don't think other New Style collectors are using it to look up precise dates for their Amphora-lettered coins.  Unfortunately, even if the Amphora letters represent months we don't know if the dies were destroyed at the end of the month or continued to be used.  I can pretend the last day of issue for Thompson 958a is Jul 13, 97 BC but have no way to be sure.

I was unaware of https://www.academia.edu/36407984/The_Great_Transformation_Civic_Coin_Design_in_the_Second_Century_BC until this thread.

Do you really only collect coins from series in which you are keeping up with the latest academic literature?  Only coins you intend to publish to advance scholarship for the series?

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Another coin with provenance
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2022, 05:13:16 pm »
Yes I got rid of my Kyme and Myrina, My Pontic tetradrachm, My Odessos Mithradates, My Bithynian Nicomedes lV, my middle catalogue NewStyles inc the representatives of the over-represented type and a few others keeping Triptolemos, Double Cornucopia, Bow & Quiver,Lionskin and Tyche. cos I like them.
I was made redundant and the collecting had to fund itself.
I no longer have those constraints.
Not even I can afford Stephanophores other than Athens.
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Offline cicerokid

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Re: Another coin with provenance
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2022, 06:17:07 pm »


esnible
I think it is a reasonable that reverse dies were destroyed at the end of the month, afterall each first magistrate wanted his own reverse with his name on it and the symbol that was meaningful to him.
Obverse dies were shared from time to time-most useful. Obverse dies last longer than reverse dies in general.

The battle to understand the Athenian (s) calendar as all but destroyed the finest minds...it might be better understood if it was not seen as being too precious to the Athenians at the time to add this, subtract that to get what they wanted. OK it doesn't';t sound Greek like but it's fooled the greater minds than mine,, and I cannot do calenderics at all.

see,  Intercalary months in the Athenian Dark-Age
period
Autor(en): Müller, Jörg W.
Zeitschrift: Schweizer Münzblätter = Gazette numismatique suisse = Gazzetta
numismatica svizzera
Band (Jahr): 38-42 (1988-1992)


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Offline cicerokid

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Re: Another coin with provenance
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2022, 08:49:00 am »

Muller, Jorge W.,”Intercalary months in the Athenian dark-age period”. Schweizer Munzblatter 41 November   1991

                             A distinguished radiation scientists attempt to resolve some aspects of Athenian calendrics using intercalary dates. I cannot comment on the astronomical and other issues but he promised at the bottom of page 88 “The practical realisation of this programme will be addressed in an article “now in preparation” ( my italics and quotation marks), where the dates for the complete New Style coinage of Athens are discussed and rearranged on the basis of the calendar”.  My research shows it failed to appear and is never discussed again and thus his re-dating of New Styles should be rejected.

A little piece from my "Sources for research on the New Style coinage of Athens with comments " on academi.edu, and this,

MacDonald, D, “A new Athenian Intercalary tetradrachm”. Schweizer Münzblätter SM (Swiss Numismatic Gazette) 48 192   1998
                               
                              Intercalary dated coins are important if the Athenian calendar could be understood and it was regularly adhered to. It seems not to have been though. This is a “Caps of Dioscuritype that is at the earlier portion of the Rome-Pontic times as in Morkholm’s original paper of 1984 (above).
                   
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Offline cicerokid

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Re: Another coin with provenance
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2022, 08:56:50 am »
More for the very few who might be interested in a good argument. I actually endorse it because it is quite helpful to me in my original paper ( from an idea by Ashcroft)
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The Impact of Jorge W. Muller’s re-dating of the Ephesian cistophori brings its Isiac symbols to a post-Rhodian epiphany date. A previously unrecorded year 42 Ephesian cistaphorus is published. The title has been changed because the original attracted the wrong sort of browser.



Muller, Jorge W., “The chronology of Ephesos revisited”. Schweitzer Munzblatter Band 77   1998
                             
A re-dating of the dated coins of Ephesos on grounds that the Romans only actually controlled  and minted coins in Ephesos five years later than assumed from the bequest of Attalos III. My ideas on the significance of the “Headdress of Isis” symbol in the Rome-Pontic times benefit hugely from his scheme. Opposed by DeCallatay in “More than it would seem….” 2011 below.
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