terrible gold fake... What do you think!

[Chiz...]

It was bound to happen one of these times off ebay.  It just arrived 10 minutes ago and I went right to the scanner.  any thoughts on what to do?  this is a first for me...

~ Chiz

[featherz]

It looks like an overcleaned brassy roman provincial of Caracalla. Not gold, but probably not fake either.

[curtislclay]

Yes, apparently a genuine brass AE 25 of Caracalla struck under governor Quintillian at Marcianopolis, Lower Moesia, AMNG 646, pl. XIX.33 (apparently same rev. die as yours).

[Chiz...]

both sides have an "indent mark" and the bottom left looks like copper comming thru...  after reading some of the fake reports, this seemed to be a canidate... Am I wrong?  Thanks for all your help!

~ Chiz

[Joe Sermarini]

The coin is genuine.  The type was only minted in bronze, never gold.  Most members of this board know that instantly on sight because the legends are Greek, the coin is large, the obverse is a Roman emperor - all that equals a bronze Roman provincial coin. 

The differences in color are typical of different cameras, scanners, lighting, etc.   Also, the coin probably a much brighter gold color immediately after it was cleaned (over cleaned).   

The indent mark is a common feature of provincial bronze from Marcianopolis and many other provincial mints.  They are also found on some Greek coins from Egypt. 

The conclusions you have made are very very common for new collectors.  A lot of our members reading your post probably thought to themselves that they had the same thoughts not long ago.  But after hanging around here a while, they know better. 

[Chiz...]

   you are so right Joe....  And a newbie I am!  Slowly learning what things mean when they are said...   like what curtislclay said about the coin and thinking to myself this should be easy!  then 1/2 hour later still lost, lol...

I learn a little more each day and with every post.  Thank you all so much!!!!!

~ Chiz

[Mark Farrell]

Curtis,

On the brass topic... Do you have any feel for why these were minted in brass? Is it specific to the location/emperor/type? Is there some general "rule" (for want of a better word) that says "this coin in bronze", this coin in "brass"?

This is news to me on provincials.... My assumption, clearly faulty, was that they were all minted in bronze, perhaps with exception of medallions, etc. Almost all of the provincials I own (not that many, sigh) have a patina, so the underlying composition is not visible.

Thanks,

Mark

[Joe Sermarini]

FORVM lists almost all copper alloy coins as bronze.  Some coins we list a bronze may be nearly pure copper and some may be brass.  References generally are not specific, so we usually are not specific. 

[slokind]

Brass because it is an AE 25 as Curtis said issued by Quintilian late in Caracalla's reign at Marcianopolis.  Almost all the coins over about 18mm there, whenever you can see under the patina, are a yellow alloy, whereas the little ones, 15-18 mm, are bright red metal (that is, red salmon color) and therefore fairly pure copper.  All of them look and feel different from most of the bronzes of Asia Minor, of which as many as have been tested are bronze, with tin and sometimes some lead in the alloy (just like an ancient bronze statue, though not necessarily exactly the same percentages).  The yellow alloy, when good, is what at Rome we call orichalcum, that is, as much as 20% zinc and almost all the rest copper (there are always traces of other metallic elements in ancient alloys, but by traces one means fractions of 1%).  Because after about Hadrian the alloys are rather more irregular in Rome, we always do call all of them bronzes (though the British Museum Occasional Paper 120 reports that most LRBC are practically just copper, though unequally pure).  It is remarkable how golden good coin brass is; it is as golden as newly cleaned church brass (lecterns, candlesticks, and the like); it is lovely stuff.  That was the color of a brand-new sestertius or dupondius, and the AE 25 Caracalla in this thread, when photographed lying on top of a pile of semi-cleaned small coins,  looked just that way.  The Balkan coins of about 23 to 30 mm diameter look and feel more like real orichalcum quite a bit later than the Rome ones do.  I am still seeking a non-destructive way to assay them and searching through archaeometry abstracts for any bibliography or other new scholarship on Balkan brass.  Caley didn't have so many of these coins.
Patricia Lawrence

[slokind]

A picture is better.  Here is the most accurate picture I could find quickly (compared with coin in hand) of a coin of the same size as Chiz's, from Philippopolis in Thrace, of Faustina II, Marcus Aurelius's empress.  This is the brass color I was talking about.  The coin is just as received from its seller; if it had been really stripped, it would be just as yellow as yours.  I do have some Caracallas in metal of just the same character.

[Mark Farrell]

Pat,

Thanks for the quick and thorough reply! This matter is very important to me because I clean coins. Understanding the composition is pretty important because without knowing the metal, sometimes it is hard to know how far I should go.

It was been pretty simple on the AE 3s and 4s I started with, but as I work on larger coins, primarily provincials from the Balkans and Asia Minor, it has gotten more complicated. More fun, mind you, but harder.

Is it a general rule of thumb, then, that if a coin is greater than or equal to 18 mm diameter (give or take) AND a provincial from the Balkans, then it is likely the coin is brass? Is there a general time frame when this rule does not apply, e.g., during or after the reign of emperor X?

I further understand that this rule does not apply to coins minted in Asia Minor. Right?

Finally, regarding brass coin production in the Balkans... Is there an underying reason for this? Perhaps greater availability of zinc locally than tin? Just curious on this one, not a truly operational question...

Thanks again, Pat (and Curtis) for the information,

Mark

[slokind]

First, about the sizes.  Depending on how thin it is and how big a wad they started with, a copper coin might be wider than 18mm; they weren't fussy about precise weights.  The next-to-smallest, perhaps a dyassarion, averages D=18mm.  A better rule of thumb (since no one wants to hurt a perfectly good protective patina!) is that the coppers don't have that pit or dimple (see another thread on that) in the center; it CAN be struck into non-existence but very rarely is such the case on both sides, and the effort of a cosmetic conservator to fill it is usually discernible.  But the heirs and empresses, when they are given issues larger than the coppers but not as large as the augustus, have coins averaging 23mm and about 7g (approximations) that do have the pits and (where visible) are of brass.  And the coins weighing about 9g to about 14g that measure about 25mm to 29mm that where marked have D, D<, or E on the reverse (not marked at Nicopolis) look and feel like brass where not thickly patinated.  The Faustina that I posted isn't REALLY patinated, by my standards; I doubted even its genuineness until I got another from the same die that was.  Like Macedonia, Thrace produced lots of metal ores in antiquity.  Mere internet browsing taught me that there is still a big zinc operation at Plovdiv (Philippopolis); the museums are full of Thracian metalwork, so much that after a few of them I decided that ancient Thracians were true Tolkienian dwarves.  Notice what unscientific statements those are; I keep trying to find real research.  The cold war left a gap in the communication of research that I may not live to see closed.  One more attachment, which would have a  on it if marked.  At Marcianopolis there is one for him that does have a gamma.  The green is hard green patina.  The pits are plain .  The metal is yellow.  Pat L.

[Mark Farrell]

Thanks, Pat.

Yes, I remember the dimples 

Your examples were also very helpful -- I'm traveling now but believe when I return home that a Gordian III of Viminacium I just purchased can confirm for me the brass content. I thought it was perhaps just inappropriately cleaned, which could leave brassy tones on the highlights. Now I suspect the rascal is brass through and through. That's from a vendor photo and once I have the coin in hand, many questions I had previously will be answered!

Great info, Pat, and if you ever dig up more on mining, etc., in Balkan region, let me know.

Thanks again,

Mark

[Chiz...]

WOW.. Thanks for all the good info!!!  There were several things that got me with this coin.  One was the "over brassy" look since the only other 2 pics I can find of the coin didn't have any brass at all showing.  Next was the "grainy look" as well as the "porous look" of the brass itself, I suppose the person that had it before me just overcleaned it like most of you have said. Last was the Dimples    I know now...

Thanks Pat for the insight as to the metal content and the other great info!!!  You people are making it fun to learn this hobby and it is much appreciated!!

~ Chiz